JH v JB

[Vinny]

Just thinking about players we have had (and not had) over the past few seasons, albeit within a very restricted budget, and comparing the type of players Jim Harvey used to be able to find. Players with flair and excitement and build up a team with spirit. Sure his teams were at a level below League Two, and he didn't manage to get them over that final finishing line, but he still found, attracted and coached quite a few flair players. Twissy, Thommo, Riggo, Jacko, Stormin Norman, Quaino, and solid defenders such as Grimmo, McKearney, Burnsie, Gnasher, Howard, to name but a few! A different level, yes. A different era, yes. But with fight, grit, spirit and determination to play for each other and win! If that standard and type of player came to our club at Conference level, why isn't it as easy to get that standard and type of player to come to us at League Two level? Or is it in the coaching?

[RedRedWine]

Don't forget, Twissy/Rigoglioso players and teams you are talking about were full-time professionals playing in at the time a predominately part-time league. The two Harvey seventh placed finishes were massive failures.

[parceldave]

Just thinking about players we have had (and not had) over the past few seasons, albeit within a very restricted budget, and comparing the type of players Jim Harvey used to be able to find. Players with flair and excitement and build up a team with spirit. Sure his teams were at a level below League Two, and he didn't manage to get them over that final finishing line, but he still found, attracted and coached quite a few flair players. Twissy, Thommo, Riggo, Jacko, Stormin Norman, Quaino, and solid defenders such as Grimmo, McKearney, Burnsie, Gnasher, Howard, to name but a few! A different level, yes. A different era, yes. But with fight, grit, spirit and determination to play for each other and win! If that standard and type of player came to our club at Conference level, why isn't it as easy to get that standard and type of player to come to us at League Two level? Or is it in the coaching?

You forgot Perks who is just about to get promoted with Wigan, wasn't good enough for us .

[Vinny]

Fair point RRW, which I had forgotten! And how could I leave out Perks! However, if 7th in the Conference was a massive failure, where does that put present aspirations? But also, the point I was trying to make is aren't there players of the said quality in the now National League, who would be only too eager to come to play for a League Two club, and that really, to be (more) successful, it's down to the coaching?

[P/T Indie]

And quite a few players like perks went onto a higher level than league 2.

There is also Duffy and Baker who came later.

[seasonsinthesun]

And back in the mid 70s Alan Taylor, who went on to score two goals in the 1975 F.A.Cup Final for West Ham.

[mrpotatohead]

Oh good, something even more pointless than Batman versus Superman

[KenH]

Something I've said before on here, when I've seen the lads in training, either at the kids' autograph open days, or on Turner's field, it looks more like a Sunday morning kick about rather than any kind of proper intensive training/practice session. Lots of warming up and "keep fit" type of exercises, lots of short passing types of drill (like a pre-match warm-up) and then a mini-game (5 or 7 a-side), usually in less than half the pitch with players rotating. I've never yet seen any "proper" match, i.e. where you have a proper formation on a full-sized pitch. I've often thought they spend too much time on the "fitness" side of things and too little time on the actual football skills. When I see them on the pitch in a proper match, and they're poor at second touches, long ground passes, lack of awareness, etc., I always come back to thinking that I've just never seen them do that kind of thing in training. We just don't seem to be able to develop players, many of whom seem to go downhill whilst we us and a few of whom have improved once they've left. Similar to how, despite Jim saying he's been working on them, we've been leaking goals from set pieces all season and have been poor at goal scoring from set pieces we've won. Then we have the discipline problem of far too many stupid and unnecessary red cards!

I have often wondered if Jim's method of management is all about being friends with the players and keeping them friendly with each-other rather than a more professional disciplined approach. Are they all here "on a jolly" to have a good time and earn a wage, rather than what is actually required in doing their jobs properly, in a disciplined manner, and being held to account if they foul up?

[mrpotatohead]

At the end of the day, it's a job, and they should work!

[RedRedWine]

And quite a few players like perks went onto a higher level than league 2.

There is also Duffy and Baker who came later.

Duffy and Baker were signed by Sammy Mac, not sure what they have to do with this thread?

Perks is interesting. I remember saying at the time that letting him go wasn't a bad thing in the short-term, but in the long-term it would probably come back to haunt us. At the time Perks was being kept out of the left-back berth by Howard, fell out with the then manager because of this and was causing disruption as he was on the bench and he wanted to play. You can't really argue with Sammys decision to let him go; we got promoted the same season and David has gone on to have a good career elsewhere. What is most interesting is how he was tried in midfield here and it didn't; but as he gained experience this is where he has ended up playing at all this other clubs.

[RedRedWine]

7th in the Conference was a massive failure, where does that put present aspirations

7th in the conference was a massive failure, which lead to Harveys sacking. Had Sammy not taken over from Jim the season he fell ill, I think we would have missed out on the play-offs for a third straight year. At the time we were bankrolled by PMG to an extent whereby the play-offs were a minimum! We were a relatively big fish compared to what we are as a football league club, where realistically staying-up is an achievement.

Are their players in the national leagues who would jump at the opportunity to sign for league two Morecambe? Probably; if the money was right. Jim has said that he has missed out targets to Conference North teams because they could offer better terms.

On Harvey, a couple of former players have told me that they didn't rate Harvey as a manager because he didn't deal well with people particularly well, but said that he was a fantastic coach. Looking at his career since he left Morecambe he hasn't really achieved much. I know he is taking Halifax to Wembley, but there is a very real possibility that they will get relegated from the conference this season; they're currently in the relegation zone and have two tough fixtures remaining. I do actually think he would have made a good number two to Bentley when Jimbo was appointed, but obviously that probably wouldn't have happened because of how JH left last time and his own personal aspirations to become a manager.

Another thing that Harvey did well was introduce the academy system which gave us the basis of a good team of home-grown players which benefitted the managers that followed him. That system (remember our reserve teams winning national titles not that long ago?) has been almost totally eroded and we are slowly trying to build that up again, but it is taking time.

[P/T Indie]

And quite a few players like perks went onto a higher level than league 2.

There is also Duffy and Baker who came later.

Duffy and Baker were signed by Sammy Mac, not sure what they have to do with this thread?

Just an example of Non league players who we had in the past that weren't just good enough for league 2 but also managed to go even higher. It shows that the quality of some of the players in the conference was equal to if not greater than the standard of league two.

[Shrimpy]

And quite a few players like perks went onto a higher level than league 2.

There is also Duffy and Baker who came later.

Duffy and Baker were signed by Sammy Mac, not sure what they have to do with this thread?

Just an example of Non league players who we had in the past that weren't just good enough for league 2 but also managed to go even higher. It shows that the quality of some of the players in the conference was equal to if not greater than the standard of league two.

The difference with those two though is that we had the resources back them to pay cash and attract top performers from non league. These days we're having to shop for freebies like getting Kenyon for free from a side that was relegated from the Conference and the likes of Diagne and Marcus Marshall.

We wouldn't be able to get a Duffy / Baker equivalent any more.