Page 1 of 2

Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:23 pm
by redrobo
It's obvious I would suggest to the majority of fans that changes are required for our club to get out of this season after season rut of relegation threatened oblivion.

But how far does out club go in undertaking the necessary surgery that would hopefully see us for once not live with the threat of relegation darkening the cloud of misery that seems to be growing after a continuing run of negative results.

Is too easy to put all the blame on the shoulders of JB without questioning the players mental attitude to the current situation that they are just as responsible for, after all when they cross that white line their performances or lack of are their responsibility.

For me there are a number of things that need to change both on and off the field.

JB is responsible for team selection and tactics but his tactical prowess needs to be re-evaluated by himself and be prepared to change completely our current style, getting rid for once and for all the use of the long ball and in particular the use of the pass from one wing to another which is a 50 50 ball and that all too often is either over hit or goes straight to an opponent. We seem to have a reluctance to run at defenses in central positions with the ball preferring to always pass out to the wing in the hope that a cross will come in that we can get on the end of. Unfortunately our forward play is lacking in numbers that it's easy meat for the opposition defenders. The best goal seem at the Globe this season was when a through ball on the deck found Millar in space to calmly stroke the ball passed the keeper. There have been other examples of playing it on the deck involving a number of passes that have resulted in a goal. In particular a 25 consecutive passing movement some time back. We can do it, but why not on a regular basis... :?: :?: :?:

Why is it that we don't put pressure on the oppositions back line like they do to us?

Why is it that we don't put any tackles in until they reach the 18 yard line?

Why is it we persist with high balls to our midfielder when we never appear to win the headed battles in midfield....due in part to any height in those crucial positions within the club?

Why is it that our forwards play some 5 metres off the opponents back line? Play on their shoulders and apply constant pressure... or is that too easy..?

If we played on the deck we could pass our way from defense through midfield to our striker (s). Doing away with the need for the long ball which is so often straight to an opponent.

For me we need to look at those around JB and ask are they too influential in determining tactical changes during a game?

From my position in C Premier I have noticed that when JB and John McMahon appear to discuss changes in tactics it's the intervention of Ken McK that seems to throw a spanner in the works and JB then ignores JMcM input relying solely on that of KMcK.

Maybe it's time to say farewell to Ken and put JMcM in the Assistant Managers seat? I've again noticed that KMcK always indicates that we use the long ball, a tactic that doesn't fit our players.

At this time I'm not one of those advocating that JB should go, BUT it's getting perilously close to my cut off of November when, like it or not, the Board need to put the question of JB's position under serious discussion and act before it's too late. I've long advocated a managerial combination of Drummy and Kevin if only until the end of the season. The football played on the deck by Drummy's teams is excellent to watch and with the undoubted enthusiasm of Kevin (albeit from the sidelines please) I don't see what we have to lose with everything to gain...possibly.

It's time for some off the field action before it's too late and the prospect of a return to non league becomes a reality.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:05 pm
by Keith
redrobo wrote:From my position in C Premier I have noticed that when JB and John McMahon appear to discuss changes in tactics it's the intervention of Ken McK that seems to throw a spanner in the works and JB then ignores JMcM input relying solely on that of KMcK.

Maybe it's time to say farewell to Ken and put JMcM in the Assistant Managers seat? I've again noticed that KMcK always indicates that we use the long ball, a tactic that doesn't fit our players.


Did Ken forget to send you a Christmas card one year???

How do you interpret his non-verbals to reach all of those conclusions? John McMahon has a brilliant tactical intervention, Jim is ready to implement it, then Ken comes in and over rules it and it all goes pear shaped?

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:23 pm
by Keith
But the area of your post dealing with team selection and style of play, I broadly agree with you. The midfield are weak in my opinion. They are clearly lacking in confidence. They don't look for that killer pass, rather a sideways or backward pass. How often do the midfield stop the attack midway in to the opposition half, pass sideways, then back, until it arrives with Barry who launches it forwards for a fifty/fifty header? May as well try and go past the player or look for a forward run?

Likewise, I think the midfield don't do enough to protect the defence. We need to get in the opposition's faces more.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:03 pm
by Phil Anderer
I've said this many a time (and often, from memory, in response to your posts Neil), but the long ball is by no means always a tactic. As I've said in the Bentley Out thread, I think a big part of the problem is not knowing how to deal with being closed down, and that must, surely, be because Jim doesn't use that tactic in training to give the players a 'safe environment' to get used to it, instead of merely having to cope on match day with no express training or guidance from the management. Yes, I am making assumptions here, since I don't hide behind bushes and watch the training (some of us have to work, you know ;) ), but I'm struggling to come up with an alternative scenario that would lead to this. The end result is the players either make the easiest pass available, i.e. sideways or backwards, sometimes loosely, which has cost us goals conceded this season, or else it's the big hoof forward to no one. Midfield definitely needs attention, as those in there at the moment are not doing the business, but it's not the only problem.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:22 pm
by redrobo
Maybe if Keith spent a game of three in C Premier and sat right behind the home dug out he would be aware of what happens.... ;)

Last night JB and JMcM ( remember he is the first team coach )were deep in conversation with JMcM pointing out what was happening and where possible improvements could be made.

KMcK came down from his lofty position in the Directors box and literally took over from JMcM who immediately sat down and had no further involvement with the game....and this happens time after time. The guy who often sits next to me has commented on more than one occasion on how role of JMcM changes on the arrival of KMcK.

I have more confidence in the former Liverpool Reserve Team Manager and also at Tranmere than I do in a former non league manager despite him being born 2 days earlier than me in the same month and same year..... :lol:

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:39 pm
by redrobo
Phil Anderer wrote:I've said this many a time (and often, from memory, in response to your posts Neil), but the long ball is by no means always a tactic. As I've said in the Bentley Out thread, I think a big part of the problem is not knowing how to deal with being closed down, and that must, surely, be because Jim doesn't use that tactic in training to give the players a 'safe environment' to get used to it, instead of merely having to cope on match day with no express training or guidance from the management. Yes, I am making assumptions here, since I don't hide behind bushes and watch the training (some of us have to work, you know ;) ), but I'm struggling to come up with an alternative scenario that would lead to this. The end result is the players either make the easiest pass available, i.e. sideways or backwards, sometimes loosely, which has cost us goals conceded this season, or else it's the big hoof forward to no one. Midfield definitely needs attention, as those in there at the moment are not doing the business, but it's not the only problem.


Many an informative 30 minutes or so was spent talking to JB on the training grounds at Lancaster Albert Hospital grounds and lately at Turners. Maybe it's time for a trip to the Uni (second time around) to see how things are now.... :?: :) ;)

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:25 pm
by tim-sanchez
Phil Anderer wrote:The end result is the players either make the easiest pass available, i.e. sideways or backwards, sometimes loosely, which has cost us goals conceded this season, or else it's the big hoof forward to no one.


Agreed, I think we're risk-averse and crumble under pressure. Too intent on keeping possession by any means possible, even if it means passing backwards, and not beating a man. First reaction to being pressured seems to be to get rid of the ball as well. Almost seems like relief when Tutte or Wildig pass the ball back to the defenders because then they don't have to deal with it.

There's a time and a place obviously, but I'd like to see some more attacking play, either dribbling past a player or playing a through ball, even if it doesn't always work.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:02 pm
by Slanester
Flemmo is for us, the classic, you don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone. For me, he is a BIG loss, and it is obvious to see. We need a replacement, as close, as like for like, as possible.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:22 pm
by Keith
Slanester wrote:Flemmo is for us, the classic, you don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone. For me, he is a BIG loss, and it is obvious to see. We need a replacement, as close, as like for like, as possible.


Totally agree, but with us still paying his wages until his insurance is sorted out, we're not really able to even think about a replacement, if we were able to find one. We're probably missing Kenyon too. While he's not the best passing & creating, he offers more in the battling, tackling & closing down, which gives the defence some support. I'd look at dropping either Wildig or Tutte and play Cranston in the middle on Saturday. I'd also want the players fired up and trying to score in the first minute as first goal is crucial.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:36 pm
by Caged Lion
Until Jim is replaced, almost nothing will change. Ditching Jim seems unlikely, so our best hope of a bit more success is for a forward to start hitting the back of the net before the oppo inevitably score

We seldom put pressure on on teams by taking the lead

Everyone I speak to at games has the same opinion

Rubbish tactics, reluctance to try out exciting young talent

The same old same old regulars and favourites, some are past it, some nowhere near good enough Ellison, Roche, Kenyon, getting in the team ahead of others who may make mistakes but deffo excite the fans more, Gomes, Cranston, Leitch Smith

I applaud Tanner starting and really enjoy Buxton. Put them together on the right. Conlan and Cranston on the left, plenty of energy there. Midfield is our Achilles heel, Brewitt and Gomes with a.n.other

Much as I like both Wildig and Tutte they just aren’t performing well, Wildig goes AWOL too much and Tutte just runs around without much end product

4-4-2 old style for me. All these weird and wonderful permutations are tedious and unproductive

But hey, I’m just a bored and frustrated supporter. I’m sure JB knows best :shock:

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:00 pm
by BerlinWaller
Caged Lion wrote:Until Jim is replaced, almost nothing will change. Ditching Jim seems unlikely, so our best hope of a bit more success is for a forward to start hitting the back of the net before the oppo inevitably score

We seldom put pressure on on teams by taking the lead

Everyone I speak to at games has the same opinion

Rubbish tactics, reluctance to try out exciting young talent

The same old same old regulars and favourites, some are past it, some nowhere near good enough Ellison, Roche, Kenyon, getting in the team ahead of others who may make mistakes but deffo excite the fans more, Gomes, Cranston, Leitch Smith

I applaud Tanner starting and really enjoy Buxton. Put them together on the right. Conlan and Cranston on the left, plenty of energy there. Midfield is our Achilles heel, Brewitt and Gomes with a.n.other

Much as I like both Wildig and Tutte they just aren’t performing well, Wildig goes AWOL too much and Tutte just runs around without much end product

4-4-2 old style for me. All these weird and wonderful permutations are tedious and unproductive

But hey, I’m just a bored and frustrated supporter. I’m sure JB knows best :shock:


I spoke to Peter Johnson today about last nights game. Peter who has been going for over 50 years, home and away. Peter who loves the club and is a genuine shrimps legend. He didn't go last night. Peter stayed away after watching the Scunthorpe game. If people like Peter Johnson are staying away, what chance does a club have?

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:09 pm
by MFC-Manc
Keith wrote:I'd look at dropping either Wildig or Tutte and play Cranston in the middle on Saturday. I'd also want the players fired up and trying to score in the first minute as first goal is crucial.


It’s got to be tutte, he adds nothing to the team... I expected when he joined he would be our midfield general (league 2 Roy Keane)
Wildig plays it simple and keeps the ball moving and is a very intelligent footballer, his only issue is he is made of glass.

People forget Jim hasn’t bought a player ever, he ends up with players like Sullivan, who have played for umpteen clubs and obviously have issues.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:48 pm
by Keith
MFC-Manc wrote:It’s got to be tutte, he adds nothing to the team... I expected when he joined he would be our midfield general (league 2 Roy Keane)
Wildig plays it simple and keeps the ball moving and is a very intelligent footballer, his only issue is he is made of glass.


I'd be inclined to agree on both statements, although to be honest, I think dropping both and making them work their way back in to the side would be a good move. Neither should feel that they are automatically in the starting line up after the last few games (nor O'Sullivan).

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:54 pm
by BerlinWaller
You can not get away with a 2 man midfield these days. Walsall constantly had a spare man(sinclair) who mopped up and controlled the centre of the park. Wildig is a good footballer who needs to be breaking the line but has to sit and hold in a 2. Tutte looks in better shape but I am not sure what he offers. He reminds me of a Dog attacking a ball rather thN a cultured midfielder. Protect them with a third midfielder and I think they would be more effective. I like O'Sullivan, he has a touch of quality.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:58 pm
by Andy D
(Positives) Was told Brewitt had a knock and should avalible for selection, and AJ Smith again looked sharp coming off the bench, I'd be starting him on Saturday

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:01 pm
by Keith
BerlinWaller wrote:I like O'Sullivan, he has a touch of quality.


To me, his best game was at Blackpool where he played up front, having not been expected to play. I don't know where his preferred position is?

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:07 pm
by BerlinWaller
He is a wide man playing in a very narrow defensive system. Buxton looked for him a few times but was slightly long with his passes except for one in the 80th minute which Sully wasted with a poor cross.

I wouldn't mind seeing Buxton in a holding midfield role. Good in the tackle, a big unit and he has a sweet right foot that could get us up the pitch much quicker.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:36 pm
by Kendalshrimp
A lot needs changing, a bad result on Saturday will see the biggest one of all though !

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:54 pm
by Gone_Shrimping
Kendalshrimp wrote:A lot needs changing, a bad result on Saturday will see the biggest one of all though !



Welcome back Kendalshrimp

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:00 pm
by Andy D
BerlinWaller wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing Buxton in a holding midfield role. Good in the tackle, a big unit and he has a sweet right foot that could get us up the pitch much quicker.
+1

Was thinking the same last night, I'd have Buxton and Brewitt instead of Tutte & Wildig, they're a lot harder, and would give our defenders better protection and cover for our attacking players.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:11 pm
by Posh
redrobo wrote:We seem to have a reluctance to run at defenses in central positions with the ball preferring to always pass out to the wing in the hope that a cross will come in that we can get on the end of.


Neil will be pleased that I completely agree with him on this point.

We barely had any ball on the edge of the D and everything was pushed out wide. Crosses though were poor or they beat us to every header. This was the same versus Grimsby and Cheltenham.

The reason for me is that players like Wildig and Tutte (who is technically an excellent player) are both being expected to sit deep, especially after Cranston was taken off, who was very poor. O’Sullivan and then Ellison were wide, leaving a great big hole where we should be attacking the box.

Personally I think we’ve got a very unbalanced squad. To get out a team with some sort of shape then we some players are going to have to be sacrificed.

I’d play 4-2-3-1

Buxton-Old-Lavelle-Tanner or Conlan
Brewitt - Kenyon
Oates or Gomez - Alessandra - Cranston
Miller

We need some creativity, a desire to beat the man and someone to move around. Players like Wildig, Tutte and O’Sullivan, all good players but simply not putting a shift in, need a rest.

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:24 am
by Slanester
Real Madrid.........no shots on goal last night. :o :shock: :o
( just banter, lighten the mood a bit :D )

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:28 am
by Caged Lion
BerlinWaller wrote:I spoke to Peter Johnson today about last nights game. Peter who has been going for over 50 years, home and away. Peter who loves the club and is a genuine shrimps legend. He didn't go last night. Peter stayed away after watching the Scunthorpe game. If people like Peter Johnson are staying away, what chance does a club have?


Troublesome news indeed

Mrs Lion said no more season ticket after Tuesday night, and that is really terrible news ... she buys my pie, peas and gravy :o

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:20 am
by RedRampage
New manager and coaching staff needed first and foremost. We have become so stale under Jim & Co. We have been crying out for a new manager for years now. He should of gone after the shocking defeat to Daggers in the FA Cup a few seasons back. I gives my dues to the fans who attend week after week, I honestly don't know how you do it. Same rubbish season after season, nothing changes & nothing will change until Jim & Co are shown the exit door. I think Jim will stay tho, because it doesn't look like the owners give a t*ss. Jim is the most protected manager in football. The club need to do the right thing,but sadly I don't think they will....... Did someone say new 3 year contract? :roll: :lol:

Re: Changes needed but where?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:38 am
by Gone_Shrimping
Caged Lion wrote:
BerlinWaller wrote:I spoke to Peter Johnson today about last nights game. Peter who has been going for over 50 years, home and away. Peter who loves the club and is a genuine shrimps legend. He didn't go last night. Peter stayed away after watching the Scunthorpe game. If people like Peter Johnson are staying away, what chance does a club have?


Troublesome news indeed

Mrs Lion said no more season ticket after Tuesday night, and that is really terrible news ... she buys my pie, peas and gravy :o



I was surprised that the gate was as high as 1,616 . Take out the Walsall fans and nearly 1,400 Shrimps fans turned up which is a reasonable number for a Tuesday night after a shocking game like Scunthorpe.