O/t This is the system we live in today

[shrimpnsave]

What a joke

http://news.sky.com/story/1603078/lee-r ... on-service

[SolentShrimp]

What sort of solicitor can defend such an animal, and be able to sleep at night?

Oh silly me. It's a Human Rights solicitor!

[shrimpnsave]

What sort of solicitor can defend such an animal, and be able to sleep at night?

Oh silly me. It's a Human Rights solicitor!

Err?how can a Human Rights solicitor defend an animal?

[black morse]

What sort of solicitor can defend such an animal, and be able to sleep at night?

Oh silly me. It's a Human Rights solicitor!

It's part of being a solicitor. Even if you feel absolutely certain that the accused is guilty, your job is to get a not guilty verdict even if it's on a technicality. Must certainly be hard to bear at times.......suppose you've just got to think of your pay packet

Actually as this guy is in for the rest of his life I guess he's got plenty of time to lose all his teeth yet

[SolentShrimp]

The prison staff have been cleared, so there is no tooth in his claim that they assaulted him!

[Phil Anderer]

Said on the news he was being restrained. Why did they need to restrain him? Was he misbehaving and resisting? I might find myself siding with Peter on this one, although I do agree he has the right to a lawyer, and I suspect some do enjoy getting involved in these types of cases.

[SolentShrimp]

Yep Phil.

None of us were there so don't know exactly what went on.

But when a known violent prisoner [I think that includes beheading an innocent victim], begins violently resisting the people who's task it is to escort the violent prisoner from A to B, the violent prisoner usually [I think] has to be physically forced to the floor face down in order to regain complete control.

Until complete control has been regained then it's possible the violent prisoner's face and teeth came in contact with the solid floor. The prison officers have to be in a position of superiority in order for the prisoner to realise he is no longer in control.

The prison officers used force appropriate to the potential violence of a proven violent prisoner, and for their own safety. They've been cleared of any wrong-doing.

Any application for Legal Aid should be refused.

[Keith]

Until complete control has been regained then it's possible the violent prisoner's face and teeth came in contact with the solid floor.

Not commenting on this case, but I do need to point out that this statement is bollocks. As someone who has been involved in control & restraint and was previously an instructor, this should never happen. If the staff doing the restraint are appropriately trained, it is quite straight forward to do it safely for all.

[Gone_Shrimping]

Said on the news he was being restrained. Why did they need to restrain him? Was he misbehaving and resisting? I might find myself siding with Peter on this one, although I do agree he has the right to a lawyer, and I suspect some do enjoy getting involved in these types of cases.

I would imagine that the left wing lawyer Michael Mansfield QC (who doesn't clear his throat for less than £5,000) is chomping at the bit to act on behalf of this character.

[black morse]

Personally I don't give a s**t what happens to this guy. There is no doubt as to what he did to the innocent soldier and I think there are some characters who should be outside Human Rights. He's one of them

[SupermarketShrimp]

Personally I don't give a s**t what happens to this guy. There is no doubt as to what he did to the innocent soldier and I think there are some characters who should be outside Human Rights. He's one of them

Whereas I can understand your sentiment it is our adherence to Human Rights that makes us better than this waste of oxygen.

Without giving him the respect and the rights he's due as a prisoner, we are as bad if not worse than him.

They want us to engage in a war with them. Showing them, time and time again, that we are above their belief structure and extreme views is the only assured way of victory.

[SolentShrimp]

Until complete control has been regained then it's possible the violent prisoner's face and teeth came in contact with the solid floor.

Not commenting on this case, but I do need to point out that this statement is bollocks. As someone who has been involved in control & restraint and was previously an instructor, this should never happen. If the staff doing the restraint are appropriately trained, it is quite straight forward to do it safely for all.

He's not in a Mental Health Hospital though!

Basic methods for this thug include...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30383191

- arm holds

- inverting wrists

- pressure compliance

- holding on the ground - face up, down, or in the recovery position

Equipment such as waist restraint belts, leg restraints, handcuffs or mobile chairs may also be used - but this is not necessarily routine.

The level and frequency at which restraint is used can vary widely depending on the sector, and there is no single overarching rulebook.

How do you train a violent, strong, unpredictable prisoner to submit to any single one of the restraint methods?

[Keith]

How do you train a violent, strong, unpredictable prisoner to submit to any single one of the restraint methods?

Don't be a dick, or there is no point discussing this. It would be very unusual for a correctly restrained person to sustain the type of injury described here. A six foot+ psychotic, paranoid patient is unlikely to be more or less difficult to restrain than a similar person in a prison.

[HALMA 1983]

I really can't understand for the life of me why this is even being discussed???
This twat and his mate should have been shot on sight, END OF! I'd of throttled this piece of shit myself if i'd got anywhere near

[Gone_Shrimping]

I really can't understand for the life of me why this is even being discussed???
This twat and his mate should have been shot on sight, END OF! I'd of throttled this piece of shit myself if i'd got anywhere near

Dead right. why did our guys not shoot to kill when they had the chance.

How much will it cost to keep these 2 in jail for 60 years

[shrimpnsave]

I really can't understand for the life of me why this is even being discussed???
This twat and his mate should have been shot on sight, END OF! I'd of throttled this piece of shit myself if i'd got anywhere near

Dead right. why did our guys not shoot to kill when they had the chance.

How much will it cost to keep these 2 in jail for 60 years

yeah right.can you imagine the public outrage when 2 colored murderer's were gunned down on a street in London/the mind boggles!!!

[SolentShrimp]

How do you train a violent, strong, unpredictable prisoner to submit to any single one of the restraint methods?

Don't be a dick, or there is no point discussing this. It would be very unusual for a correctly restrained person to sustain the type of injury described here. A six foot+ psychotic, paranoid patient is unlikely to be more or less difficult to restrain than a similar person in a prison.

Keith. Why do you insist on cherry picking your responses to whatever I post?

Were the control & restraint methods used in this case within the permissable rules for control & constraint guidelines in a prison environment?

There has been an enquiry, and the staff concerned have been found to have no case to answer.

[shrimpnsave]

Quote .Some say that the PC Brigade doesn't exist and in a sense I suppose that it doesn't. I don't expect they join up in an Army with the express purpose of making the country worse. They are just 'people' with that same patronising attitude and that wonderful sense of 'Hey, we are spreading some good in the world'. When I was a child, I think the few around then were probably known affectionately as do-gooders. Within this site, the term 'PC Brigade' is just a convenient term to describe them collectively. (For further info, see the definitions section here.)

I think that their hearts are in the right place but unfortunately their brains aren't. They have such high ideals but lack the worldly knowledge and experience as to how the world works and how people think. They speak on behalf of people who really don't want them to (such as the blind). They punch way above their weight. They don't seem to realise that nearly all of their wonderful ideas actually make things worse rather than better. They stand reality on its head. Society just keeps getting worse because of them.

Some examples:

They hate racism but screaming 'racist' at everyone who asks legitimate questions about immigration just stifles debate. If debate is silenced then people understandably express their concerns in a more direct way - hence the rise of the BNP - hence situation worse......

They don't want to smack children, even though this instills a respect for authority into them at an early age. The children quickly learn that they can do what ever they want to and so go on to disrupt classrooms and stop other children learning. As they themselves don't learn much at school, they are most likely to become criminals when they become adult and raise more children in the same vein - hence situation worse.......

They want more 'ethnic minorities' in the public services so they set 'quotas' - that is they 'positively discriminate' - which means they discriminate against the people they don't want. Yet discrimination is the very thing they consider such a sin. The result of this is that they may not have the best people for the job and they upset the existing workers - hence situation worse....

I could go on but surely even a PC person would have got the idea by now!
un quote

[SolentShrimp]

yeah right.can you imagine the public outrage when 2 colored murderer's were gunned down on a street in London/the mind boggles!!!

I think there's a difference between a 'run-of-the-mill' murder and an act of premeditated terrorism. Had Lee Rigby's murderers been blown to bits then this thread wouldn't be necessary. There would have been v.little public outrage.

Lee Rigby had Human Rights. But they were snuffed out in an instant in circumstanes no decent human being in a civilised country could ever imagine.

With Human Rights come Human Responsibilities. Ignore the latter and you lose the rights to the former.

[mrpotatohead]

Different people who seek to ''do good'' are not a huge single thinking being, dim wittedly seeking the same outcome to every subject known to man, tbey are different individual people, with individual views, you patronising shitheads.

[SolentShrimp]

Different people who seek to ''do good'' are not a huge single thinking being, dim wittedly seeking the same outcome to every subject known to man, tbey are different individual people, with individual views, you patronising shitheads.

Did you choose your Username because it has no backbone!

[mrpotatohead]

I have plenty of backbone , I suspect ,far more than you.

[shrimpnsave]

potato.jpg (14.94 KiB) Viewed 667 times

Apparently is has/lol

[Keith]

How do you train a violent, strong, unpredictable prisoner to submit to any single one of the restraint methods?

Don't be a dick, or there is no point discussing this. It would be very unusual for a correctly restrained person to sustain the type of injury described here. A six foot+ psychotic, paranoid patient is unlikely to be more or less difficult to restrain than a similar person in a prison.

Keith. Why do you insist on cherry picking your responses to whatever I post?

Were the control & restraint methods used in this case within the permissable rules for control & constraint guidelines in a prison environment?

There has been an enquiry, and the staff concerned have been found to have no case to answer.

I was cherry picking the part of your original post that was incorrect. It would be extremely unlikely that teeth would come in to contact with the floor in this type of controlled restraint, whereas you had said it was to be expected. I would not be surprised if such an injury occurred in some circumstances, for example, if two police officers were trying to restrain a violent person in a public place where there was an immediate risk of harm to the violent person or others. In that type of restraint, more force may be required and it may be less than coordinated, at least in the initial stage of the restraint. Another scenario where such an injury may occur is if the prisoner (or patient, or violent person in the community) is self harming, i.e. head butting the floor etc. Even then, it is unusual for teeth to be in contact with the floor (unless/until the nose is damaged too). A third scenario where injury like this may occur would be when 'furniture' became in contact before the person reached the floor, for example when restraining someone in a bedroom where their face hit a bed frame etc.

The second 'cherry pick' was your fatuous comment about training prisoners how to be restrained. It was uncalled for if you want a serious debate? If you'd care to share your experiences regarding control & restraint, and how often teeth come in to contact with the ground (& why) then fair enough.

As for shooting them dead at the time, while I wouldn't have lost sleep if they had been, I'd always prefer murderers like these to be arrested, tried, convicted and then spend the rest of their lives in prison. Hopefully they will live a very long time, reflecting upon what they did, every boring minute of their sad existence. They wanted to become martyrs to be remembered as such and to be rewarded in their imaginary after life, by their version of a god. Now they know that isn't going to happen, in fifty or sixty years time, long after they are forgotten, they'll be able to look back on a life that they chose to waste.

[SolentShrimp]

Were the control & restraint methods used in this case within the permissable rules for control & constraint guidelines in a prison environment?

There has been an enquiry, and the staff concerned have been found to have no case to answer.

Can't find where I 've suggested anything like..... whereas you said it was to be expected.