Referee Development

[fulwoodshrimp]

Saturday's abysmal refereeing performance by Mr. Banks has quickly reminded us of the poor standard of refereeing in League 2. The occasional decent referee comes along from time to time but generally the standard is very poor. What happens after a game like Saturday? Does the assessor go through the video of the game with the official or does he just get a pat on the back and move on to spoil another match next weekend? I would love to hear Mr. Banks' explanation for deciding the challenge on McGowan was not a penalty. In my book it was one of the most obvious penalty decisions in a long time. I understand recruitment of referees is difficult but I think it's time to change how it happens. The present system is not working and too many poor officials are being promoted to the Football League. I would like a working party who know how the present system of training and recruiting referees works to be set up to review what we are doing currently and how it can be improved. As I have said in an earlier post I am sure some ex-professional players have a role to play in trying to improve the standard of refereeing and to improve the standing of referees. In my opinion we surely cannot continue on the present path where the incompetence of the match officials determines the result of games.

[KenH]

Even worse is that he was a championship ref who rarely does L2 games!

[cyprus-shrimp]

An excellent post F/S, and surely at some point soon, the powers that be MUST take some action. Interesting as to how so very few former players are now referees. Compare that to umpires in first class cricket (there's many ex-players in the ranks).

[P/T Indie]

Not sure what happens at our level but I was watching a programme where Gary Neville and Carragher went and spent a day with the professional refs and were put through their paces. At that level they do sit and go through the big decisions with them one to one, or even in front of the other refs and evaluate their performances and discuss what the outcome should be.

[glagys]

I agree F/s it's about time this secret band of referees stood up and be counted, but I don't expect we ever see what an assessor' s report, but
The worrying thing is if the assessor marks him down as having a good game then there is no hope

[friedshrimp]

Haven't we been here before? I thought the reason we lost on Saturday was the Accrington were the better team. Surely justice was done (however much it pains to admit it)?

[Sakhalin Shrimp]

Haven't we been here before? I thought the reason we lost on Saturday was the Accrington were the better team. Surely justice was done (however much it pains to admit it)?

Yes, we have been here before and nothing has changed, poor refereeing decisions affect results.

I wasn't at the game as I am currently frying myself in Arizona so maybe I shouldn't comment but here goes anyway
From the reports I read we were not awarded a clear cut penalty, which hopefully would have resulted in a goal, final score 2-2.
Accy's 2nd goal was offside and shouldn't have been allowed so that should change the final score to 2-1 to us.

As I said I wasn't there to see and am only going off what was reported on here but maybe we shouldn't have lost even if they were the better team

[fulwoodshrimp]

friedshrimp makes my case for more independence to be introduced into the development of referees A an ex-referee he always defends the referee no matter how bad they are and Saturday's referee was extremely bad. Justice was not done on Saturday. Mr Banks' inept handling of the game ruined the match. I don't know who the assessors are but I suspect they are ex-referees who will behave like friedshrimp and praise poor officials. I would like a more robust structure where the wider football community including ex- players were involved and called a spade a spade. That way referees would hopefully respond to criticisms and improve their game. At the moment in England we are producing a lot of mediocre officials with a handful of decent ones. To think that Saturday's referee normally officiates at Championship games worries me greatly- his all round performance was in my opinion sub-standard, I wonder what his assessor thought??

[friedshrimp]

I don't always defend the referee- my last post neither criticised nor praised anyone. As in any walk of life, some refs are poor. I think my point is that some of the criticism shows lack of knowledge of the laws of the game or understanding of the role.

I have not contributed to this discussion so far but here are a couple of thoughts.

I thought the sending off was correct but unfortunate. Freeze frame the point of impact and it is pretty clear. By the laws of the game he had to go. The laws may be over -harsh but the refs job is to apply them, the assessors to judge whether he applied them correctly. Their hands are tied. When refs do show 'common sense' the match of the day pundits cry out for consistency.

I cannot see who was supposed to be offside for the second goal. The ball was played back to the man who scored so he can't be. Was it in the build up?

Lastly, the point about ex-players being involved in reffing has been raised before. In my lifetime there have been two attempts to recruit ex-players. Nigel clough was the only one who showed any interest. It is only at the top level that refs get decent payment. It takes years to get there and players presumably thought it no worth the effort.

[Freez]

Perhaps Refs should be fully professional and paid a handsome remuneration, maybe 80K a year? Then it would be seen as a decent career path but with fitness and training on interpretations of the laws drilled into them, bit like GP's?
I sympathise with refs as its a difficult, nay impossible, to please everyone.

However, there is no excuse for poor decision making.

On Saturday, sitting in the main stand, the tackle by Oliver looked Ok, but taken from the refs angle, which was the same as the camera, I can see why he gave it as he did.
What concerns me is Mr Bankes "look at me" flourish when dishing out the card immediately. Its not about you Mr Bankes!!

So accepting that the angle of view makes consistent decisions difficult, from my angle, AJ's was legged to the ground on the turn in the box very unsubtly, and Old was cropped by a stray leg, both in the box, perhaps a video system is needed to assist the referees? Mr Bankes angle seemed to be fine with every little nudge from both sides but the big decisions in the box he bottled, for me.
TV assistance happens in every other major sport you care to mention to ensure that the right decisions are reached, so why not football?
Both those decisions would have in most cases lead to a penalty kick, as the man was played and not the ball.
So perhaps better pay and training recruits better officials with more technology at their behest could eradicate elementary mistakes.

We had two cameras there on Saturday, one on each side of the ground could help?

Just saying.

[friedshrimp]

Think you are right Freez
Proper career path with proper salary and technology would go a long way.

Just a point about bottling a decision. Surely it is easier to give a home penalty than deny one. Usually refs are seen as bottling it if they bow to home pressure?

[fulwoodshrimp]

I think Freez's suggestions about making refereeing a good career are sound. As far as I'm concerned we have to do something as the present system is failing badly. Who currently assesses the referees? Is it mainly ex-referees?

[friedshrimp]

yes it is ex-referees

[dazza]

the interesting thing for me is
previously when we have played Accrington we have had higher standard of refs ie mark halsey and I also think we have had Uriah rennie
why on a weekend of internationals so no premiership and championship football
do we have to put up with such a dross referee where are the better referees ??

surely that guy knew he was out of his depth ?? surely the assessor who was there and laughing also knew ,,, is it just a job for the boys assessing something for them to doo on a Saturday rather than wallow at home ??
why don't we ever hear the assesors verdicts we are paying to watch this and they spoil what we are their to see a decent game of football ???

[fulwoodshrimp]

The really sobering thought is last Saturday's referee was from the Championship! It highlights the crisis we are in!! Someone somewhere rates Mr Bankes highly!!

[KenH]

why on a weekend of internationals so no premiership and championship football
do we have to put up with such a dross referee

It's because there were no championship games that he was free and was allocated to L2 instead! If there'd been championship games, he'd have been doing one of them. A real worry that this guy is supposed to be one of the better refs!

[Christies Child]

Very little difference between Part Time 'clown' and that of a Full Time 'clown'...only that a Full Time 'clown' could be accused of daylight robbery....

[Ntini]

I think it has to go much deeper. That challenge would have been deemed 'great' ten years ago. Now it's seen as dangerous play, hence the red card.

Last night England played in front of the smallest crowd for 3 years, yet they are supposedly the highest watched team of anyone in the world-cup qualifiers anywhere in the world. If hard tackles are outlawed, either by design or by error, then it's another reason for people to stop watching. Unfortunately that happens in bigger proportions at the bottom than at the top.

I'm a big believer in bringing in technology (although it still needs to be interpreted in the right way) as well as making referees available for media interviews after the game, and fined if they don't comply. It's amazing the difference it makes when one has to face up to the consequences of one's decisions!

[friedshrimp]

I agree that the law is too protective for a contact sport. It is worth remembering though that the law was changed with the spate of broken legs a few years back. A lot of these injuries resulted from lack of control in the tackle rather than any malicious intent (tho sadly not always the case). The problem is how to protect players from potentially career ending injury without killing the game.
I think that if Oliver had stayed on his feet there would have been no problem.

[fulwoodshrimp]

I like Ntini's suggestion that referees should be answerable to the press after a game. I would love to see Mr. Bankes squirming to answer why the challenge on McGowan was not a penalty, or how did the skirmish in the box when there was the hint of another penalty turn out to be a free kick for Accrington. I felt throughout the game his judgement of contact situations was very poor and I am shocked to the core he is a Championship official.

[halfwayprawn]

When he say's( violent conduct) i would guess there's not much chance of winning an appeal nowadays.When you have a bad day reffing in premier league, do you not get demoted, if so should he not be on his way to the conference

[Sakhalin Shrimp]

I cannot see who was supposed to be offside for the second goal. The ball was played back to the man who scored so he can't be. Was it in the build up?

As I said I was elsewhere and was just quoting from posts on the iFollow thread, a post made by someone watching iFollow from afar I believe.