Deception

Re: Deception

Postby Teams like Morecambe » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:05 pm

Keith wrote:
Sakhalin Shrimp wrote:
Teams like Morecambe wrote:
What happens if a player receives a yellow card for simulation? Do they get bairrespective t a later date or is no futher action taken?


If he gets a yellow for simulation then surely he hasn't successfully deceived a match official.


Exactly that. The retrospective punishment is where the dive results in either a penalty or an opposition player being sent off. I think it is a good idea in principle, but it has to be for clear cut cases.


So basically if the simulation is convincing you get punished but if it isnt you dont! Thats crazy! Surely all instances of diving should be punished irrespective of the onfield decision.
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Re: Deception

Postby Christies Child » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:25 pm

black morse wrote:
Christies Child wrote:Thanks for nothing Curle.....

This for me sets an unwanted precedent that gives cart blanch to all managers throughout the game to report any incident that they feel has been an act of deception on the part of an oppositions player.


Can't be sure it was Curle who reported it.


Who else?

Not the referee as he would have taken action there and then.

Curle threatened to report Sam on Radio Cumbria post match.. Stating that if Miller got a ban for something similar he felt he had the right to report Sam.

Wonder what would have happened if the penalty had been successful. Could the EFL created yet another precedent by declaring the result null and void.... :?: :?: :?: :?:
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Re: Deception

Postby black morse » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:40 pm

Well that certainly seems as if Curle may well have been the instigator. Quite what good it has done Carlisle I have no idea. :roll:
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Re: Deception

Postby Bplshrimps » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:52 pm

I don’t see why Curle pushed it so much as it won’t benefit him or his team at all. I just hope it doesn’t effect our performances over the next few games and we seem to have done better with Lavelle and old playing together.
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Re: Deception

Postby KenH » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:19 am

Bplshrimps wrote:I just hope it doesn’t effect our performances over the next few games and we seem to have done better with Lavelle and old playing together.


We'll be OK if Muller is allowed to play as he and Old worked well together. If not, then Kenyon has also played alongside Old successfully. I don't think our defence has been too bad at all this season - best for a few seasons I'd say. Wouldn't be too enthusiastic if Winnard is fit and plays instead of Lavelle though - I havn't rated him at all recently.
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Re: Deception

Postby MfcChris » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:32 pm

Lavelle basically admits diving in that interview. If you feel contact you go down!

We have enough cover.
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Re: Deception

Postby Keith » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:34 pm

Teams like Morecambe wrote:So basically if the simulation is convincing you get punished but if it isnt you dont! Thats crazy! Surely all instances of diving should be punished irrespective of the onfield decision.


If it isn't convincing, you get a yellow card there and then.
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Re: Deception

Postby marky No.1 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:29 pm

Unanimous decision

https://twitter.com/FAspokesperson/stat ... 8179190784


"The above was not accepted by the Commission who determined that the video evidence clearly showed there to be no contact between Mr Lavelle and the goalkeeper before Mr Lavelle began to go to ground in an exaggerated manner. Mr Lavelle anticipated that there was going to be contact from the goalkeeper and started to go to ground in an exaggerated manner after his first touch. Any contact from the goalkeeper after Mr Lavelle had already exaggerated his movement to ground was minimal and would not have resulted in a penalty kick. Both of his feet are off the ground at that stage in a clear attempt to persuade the referee that the goalkeeper had made contact with him. "

Background
1. These are the written reasons for a decision made by an Independent Regulatory Commission which sat on 30 November 2017.

2. The Regulatory Commission members were Mr Tom Finn (Chairman), Independent Football Panel Member, Mr Mick Kearns, Independent Football Panel Member, and Mr Ken Monkou, Independent Football Panel Member.

3. Mr Paddy McCormack of the FA Judicial Services Department acted as Secretary to the Regulatory Commission. Mr Mark Ives, Head of Judicial Services, was also in attendance.

4. By letter dated 28 November 2017, The Football Association (“The FA”) charged Mr Lavelle, of Morecambe Football Club, with Misconduct for a breach of FA Rule E3 in respect of the English Football League Two fixture between Carlisle United Football Club and Morecambe Football Club played on Saturday 25 November 2017.

5. It was alleged that Mr Lavelle’s behaviour in or around the 83rd minute of the fixture, in committing a clear act of simulation which led to a penalty being awarded, amounted to improper conduct.

6. The FA included the following evidence it intended to rely on in support of the charge:
(i) Email correspondence between Mr N Dutton, of The FA’s Regulation Department, and the three Simulation Panel Members, dated 28 November 2017;
(ii) The Guidance for Panel Members; and
(iii) A video clip showing the 83rd minute of the fixture.

7. Mr Lavelle denied the charge by way of The FA’s Disciplinary Proceedings Reply Form dated 29th November 2017. A Player does not have the right to be present or represented at a hearing of a Regulatory Commission in respect of incidents covered by this Schedule D Standard Direction. The matter is dealt with on video and written evidence only.

8. Morecambe Football Club re-submitted The FA video footage of the incident from two different angles and at both full speed and slow motion. This was supported by a detailed written submission from the Club Secretary, Mr M Horton, and a detailed account from Mr Lavelle himself; the contents of which the Commission read and noted.


The Regulatory Framework

9. The hearing took place by WebEx on Thursday 30 November 2017.

10. The applicable FA Regulation can be found at Schedule D and states –

Successful Deception of a Match Official
Standard Directions for incidents relating to the successful deception of a Match Official. For Players of Clubs of The FA Premier League, EFL, National League and The FA WSL competing in First Team Competitive Matches (FTCM).

a. General Principles
These Standard Directions will apply where The Association charges a Player with Misconduct under the Rules of The Association for incidents relating to the successful deception of a Match Official by way of a clear act of simulation which leads either to a penalty being awarded or the dismissal of an opposing Player.

11. The following Guidance is given to Panel Members –
For a panel member to conclude that simulation has occurred they must conclude that there is clear and overwhelming evidence.
In judging these incidents, there are five key questions that should be considered in the decision-making process.
To identify whether an act of simulation has occurred, the following should be considered:
1. Is there contact between the players involved? Simulation is more likely in cases where a player attempts to deceive the referee when no contact occurred between the players.
2. Is there fair/normal contact between the players, resulting in no offence being committed?
3. Is a player legitimately avoiding contact with the opponent to prevent injury?
4. Has the player initiated the contact between his opponent and himself in order to deceive the referee?
5. Does the player exaggerate the effect of a normal contact challenge in order to deceive the referee?
12. In cases of this nature, before the case is put before a Regulatory Commission, three members of a specialist Panel must have independently reviewed the incident and unanimously agreed that an incident has occurred which successfully deceived a Match Official.
13. The following is a summary of the principal submissions provided to the Commission. It does not purport to contain reference to all the points made, however the absence of a point, or submission,
in these reasons should not imply that the Commission did not take such point, or submission, into consideration when the members determined the matter. For the avoidance of doubt, the Commission has carefully considered all written and video evidence in respect of this case.
14. The Commission viewed the footage of the incident provided on numerous occasions and in great detail and having considered the Player’s and the Club’s submissions, the Regulatory Commission agreed unanimously that the Charge was found proven.
15. Mr Lavelle stated that ”As the ball came over I pushed it past the goalkeeper, and as I went round him felt a nudge from his knee as he slid towards me. I was starting to lose my balance as I went past him and felt further contact from his hand causing me to fall to the ground. Whilst the contact was not excessive but because of my running speed it was sufficient for me to be knocked off balance causing me to fall over as I was going for the ball. The video clip shows my fall to be consistent following contact from the goalkeeper and not an exaggerated fall, by me diving. It clearly shows me losing balance following the initial contact with the goalkeeper.”
16. The above was not accepted by the Commission who determined that the video evidence clearly showed there to be no contact between Mr Lavelle and the goalkeeper before Mr Lavelle began to go to ground in an exaggerated manner. Mr Lavelle anticipated that there was going to be contact from the goalkeeper and started to go to ground in an exaggerated manner after his first touch. Any contact from the goalkeeper after Mr Lavelle had already exaggerated his movement to ground was minimal and would not have resulted in a penalty kick. Both of his feet are off the ground at that stage in a clear attempt to persuade the referee that the goalkeeper had made contact with him.
17. With reference to the five key questions to be considered in the decision making process, the Commission found that there was no contact between the players involved before Mr Lavelle began to go to ground in an exaggerated manner and that Mr Lavelle could not be said to be legitimately avoiding contact with the opponent to prevent injury. Mr Lavelle initiated the alleged contact between his opponent and himself and exaggerated the effect of a normal contact challenge in order to deceive the referee. Mr Lavelle deceived the referee and this led to a penalty being awarded by the referee.
18. For completeness, it is not the role of the Regulatory Commission to examine the decision of the Referee.
Conclusion
19. The Regulatory Commission having carefully considered all the evidence presented in connection with this case unanimously found the Charge against Mr Lavelle proven in that he did commit a clear act of simulation which led to a penalty being awarded.
20. The standard punishment in this case is a two game suspension which will commence forthwith.
21. There is no right of appeal under this Regulation.


Mr Tom Finn, Chairman
Mr Mick Kearns
Mr Ken Monkou
1 December 2017
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Re: Deception

Postby Freez » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:27 pm

Mmmmm.
Top of the Premier League Man City won yesterday with a free kick awarded for a clear dive from Fabian Delph.
Wonder if David Moyes will report him? It certainly affected the outcome.
In the Bundesliga, that incident would have been reviewed, most likely reversed and Delph yellow carded.

What beggars belief, to me at any rate, is the blinkered approach from the FA/EFL to some incidents on the field which are blatant, yet others they jump on.
Lukaku kicking out at an a opponent, twice, as the ball is kicked, goes unpunished. There are thousands of children watching that played back in the media, it's wrong, no matter who you support, and the powers that be should be making that clear?
Did they?
My arse, no charge, so all those kids figure that's acceptable and I'll bet some kid tries one on a Sunday soon. And when the ref pulls him up about it, they will answer "Well Lukaku did it?"

These guys are role models, they have a responsibility surely? As does the authorities, surely?

Oh it's alright, all parties are rolling in money so forget it!
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Re: Deception

Postby Ntini » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:50 pm

marky No.1 wrote:Unanimous decision

https://twitter.com/FAspokesperson/stat ... 8179190784

"...Any contact from the goalkeeper after Mr Lavelle had already exaggerated his movement to ground was minimal and would not have resulted in a penalty kick. Both of his feet are off the ground at that stage in a clear attempt to persuade the referee that the goalkeeper had made contact with him. "


1. Contact was minimal and wouldn't have resulted in a penalty kick - so a bad refereeing decision then!

2. Both feet off the ground when contact was made:

Image (Keith's previously uploaded image)

Sounds like a solid decision from the panel who clearly came to the meeting with an agenda - "new rule this season lads, let's make sure we use it a few times whether it's right or not". What a waste of time and money!
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Re: Deception

Postby Gone_Shrimping » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:17 pm

Very difficult to see from the video how much contact if any was made.

In cricket when a side calls for a TV review they only change the umpire's decision if it shown to be a wrong call. They back the umpire.

Now with this new rule they are undermining the referee by saying he has been conned when it is not at all clear that he has.
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Re: Deception

Postby black morse » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:11 pm

[quote="Gone_Shrimping"]Very difficult to see from the video how much contact if any was made.

In cricket when a side calls for a TV review they only change the umpire's decision if it shown to be a wrong call. They back the umpire.

Now with this new rule they are undermining the referee by saying he has been conned when it is not at all clear that he has.[/quote]


And he was nearer the action :roll:
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Re: Deception

Postby paulshrimp » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:04 am

Sam Lavelle and others have been found guilty and served a two match ban for going down under minimal, or no, contact. After seeing the penalty awarded to Chelsea last night I wondered if Hazard will be charged. If not, it will be another case where the "big clubs" get away with it again. (Apologies to any Everton fans reading this)
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Re: Deception

Postby John L » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:51 am

paulshrimp wrote:After seeing the penalty awarded to Chelsea last night I wondered if Hazard will be charged. If not, it will be another case where the "big clubs" get away with it again. (Apologies to any Everton fans reading this)


I'm sure they've got over not being a big club by now. :D
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Re: Deception

Postby Phil Anderer » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:27 pm

paulshrimp wrote:Sam Lavelle and others have been found guilty and served a two match ban for going down under minimal, or no, contact. After seeing the penalty awarded to Chelsea last night I wondered if Hazard will be charged. If not, it will be another case where the "big clubs" get away with it again. (Apologies to any Everton fans reading this)


I thought this was an EFL initiative only and didn't apply to the Premier League. I could be wrong, but you'd think with all the cameras on Prem games they'd be getting banned left right and centre the way those prima donnas behave.
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