Realism debate

Re: Realism debate

Postby redrobo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:35 am

It's not often that mfcbro and I agree about things but he's right about the inadequate training facilities and I suspect others will be sympathetic to that view. However when I mentioned about the training ground being unusable from circa October at the start of LAST season I got slated by a certain Director who suggested that all the work done on the ground would resolve the problem. Unfortunately whatever work we do with limited funds will not be sufficient to rectify what is a problem of locality being well known by locals of its inability to drain properly after even a short period of rain.

I'd be 100% in favour of a return to training at Preston and would suggest that with the players being generally based nearer to Preston than Morecambe that any cost of using Preston would be compensated by the reduction in travelling expenses to the players who have to travel to Morecambe at least 4 times a week (assuming that they get car expenses?). Alternatively why can't the club come to some arrangement with PNE to make use of at least some of its training grounds or even use Myerscough College which was the base for ALL Jim Harvey's mid week evening training, due I understand to the ease of travel of the players at that time.

One thing mfcbro and I will continue to have differing opinions on is tactics, although from the last 2 home games we appear to be basing our game by playing it on the deck (excellent :D ) however I can't comment on the Bury game other than seeing the highlights which suggested a use of the long ball as well as playing it on the ground.

As for the budget I would think that the quality of player brought in during the close season (and acknowledged by football pundits as being generally excellent) that there has been an increase in budget however small to finance the new additions who for me as a group is a giant step forward on previous close season additions. Maybe if our formation and tactics favoured the players than players being asked to play in a formation that they feel uncomfortable in we would see more favourable results. It's still early days but the prospect of yet another season fighting against relegation fills me with dread but the longer our current run of poor results continues (despite recent on field performances that warrant something better) it could be a long, hard climb back to a position of relative safety.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby Andy D » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:42 am

mfcbro wrote:I understand what you are saying black morse but I don't think the players are told to play that way.Spurs got beat yesterday,pochettino didn't tell them to play that way I am sure.Lets not forget morecambes players are league 2 players for a reason,they don't go out to play badly,they are not consistent enough week in week out.

Rubbish.

Thats where Coaching comes into so players dont make the following mistakes the following week.

And Consistency, maybe the players are unhappy, like we get at work if your manager picks somebody lazy over yourself to come in at the weekend on doule time.

Its like all these forward players(short on defenders) Jim's been signing, he's going to have one unhappy dressing room with all these players wanting to play upfront.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby BerlinWaller » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:48 am

mfcbro wrote:Not putting words in your mouth its fact.All whats been going on at our club over the last couple of years the staff and management have worked miracles to keep us in league 2.As for tactics and style of play,you can only play the cards that you are dealt.ie Kenyon centre half for 1st couple of games.Lavelle injured is a big blow.We were playing 3 centre halves with attack minded wing backs which give cover on the flanks.Tutte a big blow,Leich Smith was just starting to play well and got injured.As for calibre of players we have signed,which ones have we burst the bank to get ? As friendship with Jim are us as fans not allowed friends ? As a matter of fact my wife said would I have the same view if I wasn't friendly with Jim.I said defo because I realise the predicament we are in.That was the purpose of my post." I object to your attitude of we have only scraped the barrel in players, a tad offensive to the lads we have signed but like Jim. you seem willing to throw them under the bus to protect."Dont see anywhere in my post saying weve scraped the barrel,indeed the opposite given time I thing they will prove to be good signings.However we will have to agree to disagree thats what footballs all about opinions.


We weren't playing attacking football at all. We were playing 7 defenders and 3 attackers the last quarter of the season, I remember it well.

Do you not agree that we have been able to sign better players this season? Oates and Mills? Oswell plucked from Stockport? Mandeville from Donny? Getting Old on for another 2 years? Tutte from Bury? I think this is a marked improvement from previous seasons. I think we have the right ingredients, just the Chef is cocking it all up. You implied that money and facilities restricts the ability of players we are able to sign, I disagree.

Playing the cards you are dealt? Come on, that is not an answer. Jim is playing the cards he has signed. We were crying out for another defender but he brings in another striker on deadline day. We have Flemmo and Wildig in the middle but they hardly got a kick last season so why didn't we go for another midfielder? I know it is not as easy as that but these are the questions to be asked of a well payed football club Manager.

Not having a pop at you for being involved with any club official (not in a Leighton James kinda way). I know people that are, it just isn't for me. You have to admit that this dictates your point of view and we are looking at the same thing from different angles.

You can't keep using the last 2 years as a get out of jail card. The men and women who work behind the counters have never said the pies are rubbish because they haven't been paid. The bar staff have never poured a bad pint because they have been unable to pay their rent or Mortgage. There are numerous clubs in the same kind of position. There is no abundance of money in League 2 so pleading poverty as a Manager doesn't wash when the likes of Stanley(£1.1million budget) walk to the title of Macc win the National League. How many League 1 and 2 clubs have a club owned training facility? The same old excuses get churned out over and over. We don't expect Premier League glory, we just want to see a team playing decent footy and some ambition.
Last edited by BerlinWaller on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby Seasider9601 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

BerlinWaller wrote:
Not having a pop at you for being involved with any club official (not in a Leighton James kinda way)..


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Re: Realism debate

Postby redrobo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:58 am

I suspect some of the money funding new players at other EFL2 clubs is a million miles away from what we can and I suspect will ever be able to afford. I think I'm right that Notts County (?) signed 3 new players costing them a kings ransom in transfer fees and look where they are at the moment. Cheltenham have invested heavily but they continue to struggle. But it's very early days yet. Late October will be the month to judge. It's not a level playing field by a long way and will never be, which reiterates my belief that you employ a system that suits the players not the reverse.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby BerlinWaller » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:02 pm

redrobo wrote:I suspect some of the money funding new players at other EFL2 clubs is a million miles away from what we can and I suspect will ever be able to afford. I think I'm right that Notts County (?) signed 3 new players costing them a kings ransom in transfer fees and look where they are at the moment. Cheltenham have invested heavily but they continue to struggle. But it's very early days yet. Late October will be the month to judge. It's not a level playing field by a long way and will never be, which reiterates my belief that you employ a system that suits the players not the reverse.


Of course there are clubs chucking money at it, there is right through the pyramid. Some, like Lincoln have made their own luck with a good cup run and some investment in the summer. They are a club on the up and are reaping the rewards. Notts is a bit of a mess and will sack Managers until they get to where they want to be.

What changes from last season, to the start of this and then on to October?
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Re: Realism debate

Postby redrobo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:30 pm

In Jim's post match video on the OWS he talks of 'game management' but that is a subject that has been discussed season after season but we still can't get it right. For me it's too early to discuss changes BUT there is little difference result wise (although of late performances have warranted a better return) from last season to this currently so MAYBE it's down to tactics and systems and NOT down to the players as appears to be the reasoning.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby mfcbro » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:29 pm

You say all the new players show an improvement from last year,how do you come to that conclusion so far ? As for signing defenders do you not think jims tried to sign defenders.I believe he has tried to sign countless players but all have declined to come to Morecambe.How do u know we didn't try for another midfielder ? As for the last 2 years not being an issue,would you go to work if you weren't being paid ? I certainly wouldn't.Lets just agree to disagree and see what the new owners come up with.Ipersonally don't think a great deal.Over and out from me.Ps I will see if I can get you a jacket.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby RapidShrimp » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:41 pm

Let’s be honest, if Jim hadn’t been an ex-player & captain, and been here for so long & struck up relationships with certain fans and the board, the certain same few people on here wouldn’t be defending him like they are... Simply, if a manager isn’t permforming, they get the sack, no ifs no buts, and everyone moves on without complaint. With Morecambe, it seems like suggesting that Jim is tactically inept is a sin and suddenly makes you not a fan and inciting negativity into the club. In my mind, it is the source of the negativity who should be blamed, and that is not the fans, or the ownership problems, it is the guy who controls Morecambe’s ‘entertainment’, the actual football.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby RedRampage » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:59 pm

[quote="RapidShrimp"]Let’s be honest, if Jim hadn’t been an ex-player & captain, and been here for so long & struck up relationships with certain fans and the board, the certain same few people on here wouldn’t be defending him like they are...


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Re: Realism debate

Postby marky No.1 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:08 pm

Yes owners do pull the trigger on managers for fun nowadays and i can understand why our Club has been 'loyal' with what has gone on, however it does really surprise me that having watched our survival by the skin of our teeth last season our new owners have improved a few things here and there and offered funds for new players, but at the end of the day nothing has changed on the pitch seemingly using the same set ups and even keeping the same in the boardroom.
Bizarre that they have not brought a big broom with them, have a clearout and appoint a stadium manager to stir things up.
Not much I have seen will change the 10- £15K per week losses that we are accruing.
Hopefully the offer for the 3G pitches we have made will be accepted and we turn it into a training area. Not much point having our own new pitch if it is to the benefit of the visiting teams and not us.

In 2018 at home, P13 W 3 D7 L3 F9 A 12

Total P27 W5 D12 L10 F21 33

This is realism and where we are
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Re: Realism debate

Postby BerlinWaller » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:09 pm

mfcbro wrote:You say all the new players show an improvement from last year,how do you come to that conclusion so far ? As for signing defenders do you not think jims tried to sign defenders.I believe he has tried to sign countless players but all have declined to come to Morecambe.How do u know we didn't try for another midfielder ? As for the last 2 years not being an issue,would you go to work if you weren't being paid ? I certainly wouldn't.Lets just agree to disagree and see what the new owners come up with.Ipersonally don't think a great deal.Over and out from me.Ps I will see if I can get you a jacket.


I just hope you didn't take it personally, I really wasn't having a go at you mate. I enjoyed the debate!

Thanks for the coat offer but I think I could get me and my whole family inside one of Jim's coat.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby mrpotatohead » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:58 pm

I think it's too early to judge the new owners, they have cleared the debts and sorted the pitch , provided a budget for improved players but left PMG in charge which I find totally baffling, I am a Jim fan and still think that once the new players bed in, we will see improvement in our league position , if however they don't, and we are rock bottom at Christmas, I think a change of manager will be inevitable.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby HALMA 1983 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:51 pm

Gone_Shrimping wrote:The worrying aspect for me is that of the 6 teams we have played so far its hard to see any of them with the possible exception of Northampton being any higher than mid-table and probably lower than that.

We still have the powerhouses like Lincoln , MK Dons , Mansfield etc to play.

As others have said we allow opposition wide players the freedom of the flanks. Cranston looked good in the friendlies but then had a 'mare against Exeter. Conlan IMHO just isn't good enough and maybe Cranston should be reinstated against Swindon.


POWERHOUSES??? M.K DONGS? That pile of franchise shite shouldn't even be in existence and they won't ever be anything but that.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby RedRampage » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 pm

POWERHOUSES??? M.K DONGS? That pile of franchise shite shouldn't even be in existence and they won't ever be anything but that.[/quote]

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Re: Realism debate

Postby mfcbro » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:51 am

Berlinwaller [quote]I just hope you didn't take it personally, I really wasn't having a go at you mate. I enjoyed the debate!

Thanks for the coat offer but I think I could get me and my whole family inside one of Jim's coat. For 1 i arnt your mate,and 1 i think you just made it personal with your implications.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby RedRampage » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:13 am

mfcbro wrote:Berlinwaller
I just hope you didn't take it personally, I really wasn't having a go at you mate. I enjoyed the debate!

Thanks for the coat offer but I think I could get me and my whole family inside one of Jim's coat. For 1 i arnt your mate,and 1 i think you just made it personal with your implications.



FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!
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Re: Realism debate

Postby Seasider9601 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:37 am

OLDHAMADE wrote:
Gone_Shrimping wrote:The worrying aspect for me is that of the 6 teams we have played so far its hard to see any of them with the possible exception of Northampton being any higher than mid-table and probably lower than that.

We still have the powerhouses like Lincoln , MK Dons , Mansfield etc to play.

As others have said we allow opposition wide players the freedom of the flanks. Cranston looked good in the friendlies but then had a 'mare against Exeter. Conlan IMHO just isn't good enough and maybe Cranston should be reinstated against Swindon.


POWERHOUSES??? M.K DONGS? That pile of franchise shite shouldn't even be in existence and they won't ever be anything but that.


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Re: Realism debate

Postby BerlinWaller » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:38 am

mfcbro wrote:Berlinwaller
I just hope you didn't take it personally, I really wasn't having a go at you mate. I enjoyed the debate!

Thanks for the coat offer but I think I could get me and my whole family inside one of Jim's coat. For 1 i arnt your mate,and 1 i think you just made it personal with your implications.


I am really unsure what the implications are but hey ho, I guess I should know my audience. You asked an open question on a forum and I replied. Sorry it differs from your view. Will leave it there now.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby Andy D » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:50 am

RedRampage wrote:
mfcbro wrote:Berlinwaller
I just hope you didn't take it personally, I really wasn't having a go at you mate. I enjoyed the debate!

Thanks for the coat offer but I think I could get me and my whole family inside one of Jim's coat. For 1 i arnt your mate,and 1 i think you just made it personal with your implications.



FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!


Hhmm another one who's possibly changed user names, (Shrimpnsave) ? He liked shit stirring! And the timing of his last post to this user (RedRampage) hmmm, indeed ;)
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Re: Realism debate

Postby RedRampage » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:48 am

Andy D wrote:Hhmm another one who's possibly changed user names, (Shrimpnsave) ? He liked shit stirring! And the timing of his last post to this user (RedRampage) hmmm, indeed



Nope! Incorrect. :D :D
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Re: Realism debate

Postby al1 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:03 pm

Mr spud,regarding work on the pitch pre season,only done the same work as normally done by our own staff.just cost a bit more than if Chesh had done it.only time will tell if it is of any benefit.If new owners have cleared debts that is great news,but I am still unsure as to their intentions and reasons for coming here because nothing else on or off the field seems to have changed and there still seems to be a lack of communication from them apart from posting 'likes' on facebook comments!
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Re: Realism debate

Postby Ntini » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:48 pm

marky No.1 wrote:In 2018 at home, P13 W 3 D7 L3 F9 A 12

Total P27 W5 D12 L10 F21 33

This is realism and where we are

THIS is the realism debate.

I like Jim and think he's done an amazing job keeping us up against the odds. However his record this year has been atrocious. We can't keep going like this. I'll always be grateful for what Jim has done for this club, but that counts for nothing this season if we finish in the bottom 2.

The new owners are clearly giving Jim the time to turn things around. IMO If we haven't picked up 2 or 3 more wins by the end of this month then it's squeaky bum time (as we'll have played 10/46 L2 games) and we need to look at shaking up the management. It pains me to say it, as Jim's a top bloke as well as a Morecambe legend, but we can't just drift into non-league obscurity.
HOWAY THE SHRIMPS!!!!!

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Re: Realism debate

Postby redrobo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:44 pm

al1 wrote:Mr spud,regarding work on the pitch pre season,only done the same work as normally done by our own staff.just cost a bit more than if Chesh had done it.only time will tell if it is of any benefit.If new owners have cleared debts that is great news,but I am still unsure as to their intentions and reasons for coming here because nothing else on or off the field seems to have changed and there still seems to be a lack of communication from them apart from posting 'likes' on facebook comments!


I think you are wrong. The company who did the work lifted the entire old pitch and then prepared a base for the new one to be sown. In previous pre seasons it's been a case of applying sand and fertilisers not a completely new seeded pitch as was the case this close season. Chesh has done a lot of the preparation work in other close seasons but this time it was completely done by a specialist company who I understand had to come back and do some further work due to the weather we had which was not conducive to a growing season.
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Re: Realism debate

Postby Freez » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:53 pm

The issue, that has been well documented, is the substrata to the pitch doesn't have sufficient drainage capabilities, it's too compacted.
This was known when it was laid as the club decided on the cheaper option.
According to Chesh, when asked if it will perform any better this winter "Its window dressing, we will seee!!".
Frisnit Frisnit!!
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