Racism / Taking the knee

[skyecat]

I recently spotted a comment from Exeter's Jake Caprice saying that his club would back him if he felt he had to leave the field due to racist comments.
Add that to the Millwall and Cambridge / Colchester game too.

I'm just after anyone's thoughts on an idea, albeit drastic, but it would appear to me, that drastic is the only way to get through to people nowadays - If a club hears their own fans chanting or commenting with a racist tone, maybe all the players in that team should leave the field? Obviously make it clear that that is what will happen if they hear anything along those lines?

Just a thought - I know it could be disastrous - but only if the team's fans were made up of non desirables?

[Wild Bill]

I don't think I have heard any racist abuse at MFC but if there was I'd be happy for the team to walk off.

[Slanester]

I don't think I have heard any racist abuse at MFC but if there was I'd be happy for the team to walk off.

Agree WB, me neither.
Just to add to that. I have never heard any racist abuse, at any away lge2 ground I have been too either. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen though(?)

[cragbankshrimp]

I'd be fuming if i had made the effort to go to a game and paid the entry fee for the whole team to go off the field because one or a few numpties shout racsist comments. Let the stewards and club do their bit and the players do theirs.
Just my opinion

[tim-sanchez]

I'd fully support the players leaving the field. Racist abuse has no place on our stands.

Also, whilst I've never heard racist abuse at Morecambe or at other grounds, I have heard a lot of homophobic abuse at Morecambe and elsewhere. I don't know why homophobia seems more "accepted" in football, but I've heard plenty of players called gay, fags, poofs, chants about opponents being gay. It's not common thankfully, but I have heard it.

[Phoenix Shrimp 2017]

After attending thousands of matches back into the late sixties I can't ever recall hearing racist chanting/abuse at a match I've been at.

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon. I don't class that as racism, more frustration that they have paid to watch a football match, not attend a protest or political rally, so lets just get on with the football. The taking the knee message has been done to death, so in my opinion lets now revert to normal and get on with the sport. Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

If taking the knee is to be with us for ever more (which it now appears) lets get the players out half an hour earlier and recognise some other worthy causes. There are many more to go at.

[tim-sanchez]

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon. I don't class that as racism, more frustration that they have paid to watch a football match, not attend a protest or political rally, so lets just get on with the football. The taking the knee message has been done to death, so in my opinion lets now revert to normal and get on with the sport. Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

If taking the knee is to be with us for ever more (which it now appears) lets get the players out half an hour earlier and recognise some other worthy causes. There are many more to go at.

I can't really understand this argument. Politics has been a part of football forever, and regularly players show their support for a variety of causes. I never hear anyone complain that poppies have been "done to death" despite players showing support for the poppy appeal every single year with "no sign of it winding down". We've had the rainbow laces appeal in the past few weeks as well, minutes silence for people who pass away, prostate cancer, MIND, etc. There are many other causes that already are supported, taking the knee doesn't mean other causes can't be supported.

It's a few seconds before kick-off, it doesn't in any way reduce the amount of time we get to enjoy watching the match, nor does it affect the game itself at all. Players regularly show support for a variety of causes before and during matches, I really don't think taking the knee in support of anti-racism is a big deal. I'd understand more if matches were being reduced to 80 minutes, but the sport is still continuing as normal, it's not remotely interfered with by a few seconds spent kneeling.

[morecambegeek]

I was a match away at halifax years ago, the referee mo matadar was loudly instructed to go back to were he came from by one of our fans, who was thankfully out back in his place by his, I assume, wife.

So I'm glad that racism isn't prevalent at Morecambe, but it has taken place.

And whether is is or isn't among our fans, it is in the game. Perhaps some people are booing the political gesture, but I doubt that most of those booing have the intelligence to know what a political opinion is.

[Slanester]

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon. I don't class that as racism, more frustration that they have paid to watch a football match, not attend a protest or political rally, so lets just get on with the football. The taking the knee message has been done to death, so in my opinion lets now revert to normal and get on with the sport. Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

If taking the knee is to be with us for ever more (which it now appears) lets get the players out half an hour earlier and recognise some other worthy causes. There are many more to go at.

I can't really understand this argument. Politics has been a part of football forever, and regularly players show their support for a variety of causes. I never hear anyone complain that poppies have been "done to death" despite players showing support for the poppy appeal every single year with "no sign of it winding down". We've had the rainbow laces appeal in the past few weeks as well, minutes silence for people who pass away, prostate cancer, MIND, etc. There are many other causes that already are supported, taking the knee doesn't mean other causes can't be supported.

It's a few seconds before kick-off, it doesn't in any way reduce the amount of time we get to enjoy watching the match, nor does it affect the game itself at all. Players regularly show support for a variety of causes before and during matches, I really don't think taking the knee in support of anti-racism is a big deal. I'd understand more if matches were being reduced to 80 minutes, but the sport is still continuing as normal, it's not remotely interfered with by a few seconds spent kneeling.

.

Agree with most of the points you are making ts, but your use of the poppy as “political” is for me, simply wrong. The poppy is representation of respect for the fallen, regardless of colour of skin, race etc.

[tim-sanchez]

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon. I don't class that as racism, more frustration that they have paid to watch a football match, not attend a protest or political rally, so lets just get on with the football. The taking the knee message has been done to death, so in my opinion lets now revert to normal and get on with the sport. Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

If taking the knee is to be with us for ever more (which it now appears) lets get the players out half an hour earlier and recognise some other worthy causes. There are many more to go at.

I can't really understand this argument. Politics has been a part of football forever, and regularly players show their support for a variety of causes. I never hear anyone complain that poppies have been "done to death" despite players showing support for the poppy appeal every single year with "no sign of it winding down". We've had the rainbow laces appeal in the past few weeks as well, minutes silence for people who pass away, prostate cancer, MIND, etc. There are many other causes that already are supported, taking the knee doesn't mean other causes can't be supported.

It's a few seconds before kick-off, it doesn't in any way reduce the amount of time we get to enjoy watching the match, nor does it affect the game itself at all. Players regularly show support for a variety of causes before and during matches, I really don't think taking the knee in support of anti-racism is a big deal. I'd understand more if matches were being reduced to 80 minutes, but the sport is still continuing as normal, it's not remotely interfered with by a few seconds spent kneeling.

.

Agree with most of the points you are making ts, but your use of the poppy as “political” is for me, simply wrong. The poppy is representation of respect for the fallen, regardless of colour of skin, race etc.

I'd make the same point about taking the knee. It's about anti-racism, not about politics, but people can see anything as political if they want to. In the same way rainbow laces isn't a political statement, but instead about respect and tolerance.

My point wasn't really that the poppy is political, but rather players have always taken time out before and during matches to show support for various causes (whether political or not), and this isn't any different. If players take a minute out to respect someone who passed away, wear a poppy on their shirt, show the mind logo on the shirt, we don't question when those campaigns will end, nobody says "enough is enough". I don't see why taking the knee needs a defined end date either.

[Slanester]

I can't really understand this argument. Politics has been a part of football forever, and regularly players show their support for a variety of causes. I never hear anyone complain that poppies have been "done to death" despite players showing support for the poppy appeal every single year with "no sign of it winding down". We've had the rainbow laces appeal in the past few weeks as well, minutes silence for people who pass away, prostate cancer, MIND, etc. There are many other causes that already are supported, taking the knee doesn't mean other causes can't be supported.

It's a few seconds before kick-off, it doesn't in any way reduce the amount of time we get to enjoy watching the match, nor does it affect the game itself at all. Players regularly show support for a variety of causes before and during matches, I really don't think taking the knee in support of anti-racism is a big deal. I'd understand more if matches were being reduced to 80 minutes, but the sport is still continuing as normal, it's not remotely interfered with by a few seconds spent kneeling.

.

Agree with most of the points you are making ts, but your use of the poppy as “political” is for me, simply wrong. The poppy is representation of respect for the fallen, regardless of colour of skin, race etc.

I'd make the same point about taking the knee. It's about anti-racism, not about politics, but people can see anything as political if they want to. In the same way rainbow laces isn't a political statement, but instead about respect and tolerance.

My point wasn't really that the poppy is political, but rather players have always taken time out before and during matches to show support for various causes (whether political or not), and this isn't any different. If players take a minute out to respect someone who passed away, wear a poppy on their shirt, show the mind logo on the shirt, we don't question when those campaigns will end, nobody says "enough is enough". I don't see why taking the knee needs a defined end date either.

That is why, I made it clear. “ I agree,” with most of your points.

[Andy D]

taking the knee only lasts a few seconds anyway , what ever.

[Phoenix Shrimp 2017]

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon. I don't class that as racism, more frustration that they have paid to watch a football match, not attend a protest or political rally, so lets just get on with the football. The taking the knee message has been done to death, so in my opinion lets now revert to normal and get on with the sport. Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

If taking the knee is to be with us for ever more (which it now appears) lets get the players out half an hour earlier and recognise some other worthy causes. There are many more to go at.

I can't really understand this argument. Politics has been a part of football forever, and regularly players show their support for a variety of causes. I never hear anyone complain that poppies have been "done to death" despite players showing support for the poppy appeal every single year with "no sign of it winding down". We've had the rainbow laces appeal in the past few weeks as well, minutes silence for people who pass away, prostate cancer, MIND, etc. There are many other causes that already are supported, taking the knee doesn't mean other causes can't be supported.

It's a few seconds before kick-off, it doesn't in any way reduce the amount of time we get to enjoy watching the match, nor does it affect the game itself at all. Players regularly show support for a variety of causes before and during matches, I really don't think taking the knee in support of anti-racism is a big deal. I'd understand more if matches were being reduced to 80 minutes, but the sport is still continuing as normal, it's not remotely interfered with by a few seconds spent kneeling.

We do a minutes silence in remembrance of war dead once a season. We do a minutes silence/applause of club notables passing as a one off thing. We don't continue to repeat them before every match. We now do taking a knee before every football match. My argument would be the point has been made, we understand and we agree with the principles behind it. What we don't need is this repeated ad infinitum because it now seems to be counter productive, in so much as it's getting the wrong reaction from some football fans. If it's getting that reaction when a minimal number of fans are in the ground what's going to happen when crowds return to normal. If a few boo it do the players walk off and call the match off?

[jbc.shrimp]

I'd be fuming if i had made the effort to go to a game and paid the entry fee for the whole team to go off the field because one or a few numpties shout racsist comments. Let the stewards and club do their bit and the players do theirs.
Just my opinion

+1, but I thought any person making ANY abusive statement could be ejected. Having said all this, I find it objectionable that any personality takes a knee to make a political statement. Keep politics out of sport, just go and enjoy.

[tim-sanchez]

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon. I don't class that as racism, more frustration that they have paid to watch a football match, not attend a protest or political rally, so lets just get on with the football. The taking the knee message has been done to death, so in my opinion lets now revert to normal and get on with the sport. Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

If taking the knee is to be with us for ever more (which it now appears) lets get the players out half an hour earlier and recognise some other worthy causes. There are many more to go at.

I can't really understand this argument. Politics has been a part of football forever, and regularly players show their support for a variety of causes. I never hear anyone complain that poppies have been "done to death" despite players showing support for the poppy appeal every single year with "no sign of it winding down". We've had the rainbow laces appeal in the past few weeks as well, minutes silence for people who pass away, prostate cancer, MIND, etc. There are many other causes that already are supported, taking the knee doesn't mean other causes can't be supported.

It's a few seconds before kick-off, it doesn't in any way reduce the amount of time we get to enjoy watching the match, nor does it affect the game itself at all. Players regularly show support for a variety of causes before and during matches, I really don't think taking the knee in support of anti-racism is a big deal. I'd understand more if matches were being reduced to 80 minutes, but the sport is still continuing as normal, it's not remotely interfered with by a few seconds spent kneeling.

We do a minutes silence in remembrance of war dead once a season. We do a minutes silence/applause of club notables passing as a one off thing. We don't continue to repeat them before every match. We now do taking a knee before every football match. My argument would be the point has been made, we understand and we agree with the principles behind it. What we don't need is this repeated ad infinitum because it now seems to be counter productive, in so much as it's getting the wrong reaction from some football fans. If it's getting that reaction when a minimal number of fans are in the ground what's going to happen when crowds return to normal. If a few boo it do the players walk off and call the match off?

I could say the point has been made with the poppy, or MIND, or rainbow laces, but nobody seems to oppose those campaigns. And when there are opponents to those campaigns, the response isn't just to give up on the campaign as a whole.

I'm really not seeing that as an argument to stop the knee. Players wear a MIND logo on the back of their shirts every single match, we all get the message about mental health, but I don't see anyone arguing the campaign needs to end. I don't see why this one campaign gets singled out and people think it needs to end, given so many other campaigns take place in football.

[Ego Tripping]

Some of the responses on here just show why its needed. The point is nowhere near being made and to suggest otherwise is idiotic. Racism has been rife in football (and wider society) for years and I would suggest anyone who goes regularly to football matches and says they have not been aware of it are either deaf, blind or part of the problem.

Secondly ‘whataboutary’ is never a valid reason or excuse. There are loads of other valid causes but to suggest they can’t work alongside each other is nonsensical.

Finally on the subject of walking off the pitch I’d leave that decision to those who are receiving the abuse. If they choose to walk off I certainly wouldnt be upset with the players. If they feel that is an appropriate action then we should back them.

[Slanester]

Some of the responses on here just show why its needed. The point is nowhere near being made and to suggest otherwise is idiotic. Racism has been rife in football (and wider society) for years and I would suggest anyone who goes regularly to football matches and says they have not been aware of it are either deaf, blind or part of the problem.

Secondly ‘whataboutary’ is never a valid reason or excuse. There are loads of other valid causes but to suggest they can’t work alongside each other is nonsensical.

Finally on the subject of walking off the pitch I’d leave that decision to those who are receiving the abuse. If they choose to walk off I certainly wouldnt be upset with the players. If they feel that is an appropriate action then we should back them.

As I said, along with others, I have never heard any racial abuse at Morecambe, or any other lge 2 away game, I have attended. All of my senses are in tact, and take issue with your reference to the only other option...”part of the problem.” Do you know me? Obviously not.

[Ego Tripping]

I’d suggest you read what I wrote again. Certainly not refering to you specifically as you quite clearly say that just because you havent heard it personally it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I also specifically refer to people being ‘aware’ of racism at football, not necessarily hearing it for themselves.

[Slanester]

I’d suggest you read what I wrote again. Certainly not refering to you specifically as you quite clearly say that just because you havent heard it personally it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I also specifically refer to people being ‘aware’ of racism at football, not necessarily hearing it for themselves.

I did read what you wrote. No direct reference to me,agreed, but comment referring to.....”anyone......”
which directly includes those on here, who have said they haven’t, myself included. You feel it is ok to just put it out there, then I am going to put you straight.

[Keith]

After attending thousands of matches back into the late sixties I can't ever recall hearing racist chanting/abuse at a match I've been at.

Perhaps that had as much to do with the lack of black players playing in the Norther Premier League, so it rarely happened? I clearly remember as an eight[ish] year old (mid-1970's), joining in with a group who were making monkey noises whenever a black lad got the ball. I asked why this was happening? I was told "anything that puts an opposition player off is helping our team". While I didn't understand 'racism' as such, I recognised that this was wrong. I was uncomfortable even at that age and in the second half, I wandered off and stood on my own.

I also recall someone repeatedly shouting "you black b*****d" at referee Uriah Rennie when he first refereed a Morecambe game, then laughing after seeing him close up at a corner and saying something along the lines of, "I'd better be quiet, look at the size of him, like a bloody gorilla. And he does kick boxing too." That would have been in the early 1980's.

I think recent incidents at matches have amounted to people booing the taking the knee ceremony. The ceremony seems to be a given at matches now with no sign of it winding down any time soon.

Would I boo it? No I wouldn't but I think enough is enough.

Perhaps it should 'wind down' when racism at football matches 'winds down' too? Sadly, I agree with you, it it is not showing any signs of doing so soon and yes, enough is enough... that's the racism more than the kneeling.

[RapidShrimp]

In my opinion (so take it or leave it!), taking the knee has become synonymous with BLM, which is (unless you’ve been living in an ignorant bliss for this year) an American political organisation with an extremist-like manifesto. I can’t help but wonder whether we’d be having much more success in this country using the previously effectively-used (our own) slogans and organisations of “No Room of Racism” and “Kick it Out.” Everyone has got used to these, and we all appreciate that these are not politically motivated.

On the point about players walking off, I agree that I would be as annoyed as hell if both teams walked off if a member of the crowd said something. That individual (or individuals) are in the hands of the stewards & police who should eject them & consider a lifetime ban and sentence if proven guilty. However, if a player, official (like what happened with Istanbul vs. PSG) or someone on the benches racially abuses someone, then you can’t as easily just eject them from the stadium, so the players walking off is entirely appropriate and should be encouraged if they feel they would like to.

I hope if you read my entire post you will find that I am not racist or “part of the problem.”

[Westgate Wanderer]

I can remember Justin Jackson getting abuse from a couple of morecambe supporters away at Slough Town one year! He had missed a sitter and these supporters gave him some bad racial abuse. I remember he gave them a glare. When he finally did score (jigsaw anyone) they then thought he was great!! It happens everywhere sadly and there is absolutely no need for it! Taking the knee is starting to be used as a political football with the #defundthepolice appearing.

[Wild Bill]

I think it's worth highlighting that racism in football is a lot more than just if fans shout racist abuse or not. Around a third of professional footballers are black or from an ethnic minority but very few make it into management positions and ever fewer make it into the boardroom and other senior positions.

[skyecat]

I too have never heard any racist comments from the Morecambe crowd - I was merely muting an idea that instead of / as well as the players taking the knee, they could leave the pitch if they heard any racist comments. The sentiment of the other part of my original post, was that rather than the targeted player/s leaving the pitch, maybe the players of the team whose fans are doing the chanting would leave, thus creating an incentive to the "fans" not to do it in the first place and to maybe instill in them that it's not acceptable?

[Keith]

I think if players leave the pitch, then the fans around the racists would be very quick to point them out to stewards. Get them ejected & players return. If they aren't dealt with, then the players don't return.

In my opinion (so take it or leave it!), taking the knee has become synonymous with BLM, which is (unless you’ve been living in an ignorant bliss for this year) an American political organisation with an extremist-like manifesto.

Really?

From the UK 'Black Lives Matter'.

"WE WELCOME ALL - We stand together across the globe to change the world, we kneel together in peace and solidarity asserting black people is treated as equals to white people. It is a human right to receive racial equality, social and criminal justice in the societies we live and to receive parity as full citizens of the country and as a united nation.

We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.

We are not operating as a member of nor connected with any political party".

https://blacklivesmatter.uk

From the US 'Black Lives Matter'.

"#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.

We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.

We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.

We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression".

The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

There is no "Marxist manifesto".

The organisation was started by someone who said they were Marxist but Black Lives Matter is not an organised political movement and is now much bigger than the people who originally formed it. Alicia Garza is married to a transgender man and as well as describing herself as Marxist, she is also pro-transgender rights (BLM support all marginalised people including gay & transgender) but you don't describe BLM as a transgender organisation. She is also a Jew, but you don't describe BLM as a Jewish organisation.

Sorry I'm living in ignorant bliss...