FA cup

[Andy]

Congratulations to Everton I hope they go on and win it.

[George Dawes]

Congratulations to Everton I hope they go on and win it.

me to now, but the FA CUP ain't what it use to be, i thought it got devalued when they started playing the semi-finals there at Wembley..

[Bolio]

Also, in the FA cup how can Utd field the likes of Wellbeck, Gibson and Foster. All quality players in there own right but it's a semi final for Christ sake , a starting full strength first team should go without saying. The FA cup IMO is fading thanks to the so called "bigger" teams. Full credit to Everton I think they deserved it.

I also agree with the venue debate , takes the whole gloss of the final away staging the semi's at Wembley. Nothing wrong with Old Trafford and Villa Park as the venues. Pathetic.

[Crooky MFC]

Also, in the FA cup how can Utd field the likes of Wellbeck, Gibson and Foster. All quality players in there own right but it's a semi final for Christ sake , a starting full strength first team should go without saying. The FA cup IMO is fading thanks to the so called "bigger" teams. Full credit to Everton I think they deserved it.

I also agree with the venue debate , takes the whole gloss of the final away staging the semi's at Wembley. Nothing wrong with Old Trafford and Villa Park as the venues. Pathetic.

It's all about money money money, I'm afraid.

[Bare Ben]

I was expecting a second thread titled "Well Done Man Utd", Oh dear

[outsider]

interesting fact(?) from 5live,

the team that has knocked out Middlesbrough from the FA cup in the last 4 seasons has gone on to lose in the final, so as they beat them in the 1/4's Everton might as well not bother going back for the final.

[Bolio]

It's all about money money money, I'm afraid.

Shame isn't it. O well, then they wonder why we support lower league teams. More passion and true football behaviour.

[Crimson Crust]

Congratulations to Everton I hope they go on and win it.

me to now, but the FA CUP ain't what it use to be, i thought it got devalued when they started playing the semi-finals there at Wembley..

I don't mind! We've never lost at Wembley.

[shrimper]

Congratulations to Everton I hope they go on and win it.

me to now, but the FA CUP ain't what it use to be, i thought it got devalued when they started playing the semi-finals there at Wembley..

Sorry. Sopabox again.

It became devalued shortly after the Champions' League was formed. THAT then became the big money-spinner and the priority (after the Prem which qualifies you for the CL) for what quickly became the top or 'Champions' League' clubs.

The farce of our domestic league being a carve-up between the same few clubs each year; the devaluing of the FA Cup; the fact that 'top four' kits are virtually the only ones you now see on sale in a lot of sports shops here and when you go on holiday; the fact that top four clubs can cherry-pick almost all of the best players from clubs outside that elite whenever they feel like it and the recent relegation of our national side's games and friendlies to an 'irritation and inconvenience' for many top managers (and, it could be argued, for some of our national team's players) is ALL attributable to the formation of that money-driven competition.

Add to that the fact that this GUARANTEE of big TV money every year has now attracted billionaires from abroad who see a chance to create mega world brands (they previously had no interest whatsoever in 'soccer' and, in some decisions they make, it shows - just wait for the Prem games in Singapore - it WILL happen unless someone takes a real stand).

The Champions League has ruined our national game and its traditional competitions - all for the sake of a few rich clubs who wanted to get even richer.

[Keith]

- all for the sake of a few rich clubs who wanted to get even richer.

or...

all for a few well run businesses who saw an opportunity and took it? Only the 'big four' shirts in shops, because the 'big four' built on their success on the pitch with excellent marketing off it?

I have no problem with the cartel at the top of English football. Partly because I was only ever an arm chair follower of one of them, partly because I think it has ruined the Premiership but is actually a positive influence upon the rest of football and partly because I'm realistic enough to know that the changes are here to stay. There are more and more new fans coming to Morecambe each season. They may have been priced out of watching top flight football (top four and a few others) or they may have got fed up with a game where the best they can hope for is surviving a relegation battle (Blackburn?) I know of more 'lapsed Liverpool & Man Utd fans who come to watch Morecambe than I know lapsed Man City, Spurs or Blackburn fans. That's people who actually used to go to games and who still want their (second) team to win the Premiership but don't (can't) now go.

Yes the Premiership is a dull league. More to the point, a combination of three mini-leagues where the victory is 'don't be relegated' (Hull, Stoke, Sunderland etc), qualify for Europe (Villa, Man City, Everton) or stay in the top cartel. If that improves the interest in Morecambe, 'Football You Can Touch' then that is fantastic as far as I'm concerned.

Incidentally, this 'arm chair' follower of United didn't bother watching the game yesterday (nice day, out on the motorbike) and wasn't in the slightest bit upset that Everton won, in fact, good on them, I hope the beat Chelsea in the final.

[ezz]

Anyone hear Fergie's rant about Benitez and his 'contempt' when going 2-0 up against Blackburn saying it was very disrespectful and that Sam Allardyce didn't deserve it?

Seemed to me playing a reserve side in the semi-final of the FA cup against Everton showed contempt and maybe David Moyes didn't deserve to have to face a second rate side full of kids, biggest hypocritcal t*at in football.

[shrimper]

- all for the sake of a few rich clubs who wanted to get even richer.

or...

all for a few well run businesses who saw an opportunity and took it? Only the 'big four' shirts in shops, because the 'big four' built on their success on the pitch with excellent marketing off it?

Saw an opportunity, certainly. That's what I meant by them leaping on a period of success and wanting to force the creation of a competition that would virtually guarantee them staying at the top through this new structure. That was the only reason it was formed, nothing to do with the betterment of football. Marketing? - Sky do it for them, the rest have some great marketing teams but they can't offer the one crucial attraction - they're not CL teams. I remember when there were just 'teams'.

I have no problem with the cartel at the top of English football. Partly because I was only ever an arm chair follower of one of them, partly because I think it has ruined the Premiership but is actually a positive influence upon the rest of football and partly because I'm realistic enough to know that the changes are here to stay. There are more and more new fans coming to Morecambe each season. They may have been priced out of watching top flight football (top four and a few others) or they may have got fed up with a game where the best they can hope for is surviving a relegation battle (Blackburn?) I know of more 'lapsed Liverpool & Man Utd fans who come to watch Morecambe than I know lapsed Man City, Spurs or Blackburn fans. That's people who actually used to go to games and who still want their (second) team to win the Premiership but don't (can't) now go.

I don't see it as a positive influence on the rest of football at all (I think it's relegated a lot of 'the rest' to no-hopers where once there was at least hope).
The rest of that is fair enough as a personal comment. I just happen to have been more of a supporter of my non top four team and regret that that excitement has now been taken away from me by something that's all about money for greedy clubs.

Yes the Premiership is a dull league. More to the point, a combination of three mini-leagues where the victory is 'don't be relegated' (Hull, Stoke, Sunderland etc), qualify for Europe (Villa, Man City, Everton) or stay in the top cartel. If that improves the interest in Morecambe, 'Football You Can Touch' then that is fantastic as far as I'm concerned.

With my Morecambe hat on I'd agree.
With my Spurs hat on, it's not fantastic and with my 'what I think is best for our national game' hat on, I think it's appalling that it's been allowed to happen virtually unchallenged.

Incidentally, this 'arm chair' follower of United didn't bother watching the game yesterday (nice day, out on the motorbike) and wasn't in the slightest bit upset that Everton won, in fact, good on them, I hope the beat Chelsea in the final.

I'll get the hang of this 'font colour' thing one day.

[Mighty Red]

I'll get the hang of this 'font colour' thing one day.

Don't hold your breath.

[Car Wash Kev]

It's all about money money money, I'm afraid.

Is it just the Premiership that thinks that way?

[Crimson Crust]

It's all about money money money, I'm afraid.

Is it just the Premiership that thinks that way?

You have to think about money when running a football club. Whichever league
you're in. Yes, the Premiership have seen to most of that. Generally, the more money you have, the more success will follow.


Phil Garside(?) Chairman of little Bolton Wanderers wants to create 'Prem 2'. Snatchin' half the Championship, Cream off Scotlands BIG Two. The BEST bit is one up-one down!! from the
Championship to Prem 2. The greedy B'stard is feathering his own nest, to ensure they do not become another Leeds, Charlton or Southampton.

The current Big Four will not vote for that- They will be scared that there will be more Man City's on the horizon. Who will want to invest big or moderate money in to the FL then?

Clubs will fold at an alarming rate in the lower leagues, points will be deducted left, right
and centre and it will lose more interest year on year. Fans will be forming more AFC's than ever, playing in front of 500 every week. The end of 'Proper' Football.

[shrimper]

It's all about money money money, I'm afraid.

Is it just the Premiership that thinks that way?

Phil Garside(?) Chairman of little Bolton Wanderers wants to create 'Prem 2'. Snatchin' half the Championship, Cream off Scotlands BIG Two. The BEST bit is one up-one down!! from the
Championship to Prem 2. The greedy B'stard is feathering his own nest, to ensure they do not become another Leeds, Charlton or Southampton.

The current Big Four will not vote for that- They will be scared that there will be more Man City's on the horizon. Who will want to invest big or moderate money in to the FL then?

Clubs will fold at an alarming rate in the lower leagues, points will be deducted left, right
and centre and it will lose more interest year on year. Fans will be forming more AFC's than ever, playing in front of 500 every week. The end of 'Proper' Football.

Gartside, then, is trying to do precisely what the big clubs did when they created the Prem and (forced the creation of) the Champions' League.

Both were simply about trying to maximise the amount of (TV) money those clubs who were in the ascendency at that time could keep to themselves.

No reason for doing this latest thing other than self preservation and greed - but it didn't stop the other two schemes going ahead.

Things like, as you say, a veto by the big clubs at the top of the Prem may stop this going ahead. But logic and 'for the good of the game' arguments won't be relevant if recent history is anything to go by.

[Keith]

The thing is Glen, if Spurs were part of the top four cartel, would you be 'bored' with the success? If it had been Spurs time at the expense of Man Utd, would you regret that the reds were unable to break in to the top? Or, would you have lapped it up until you were priced out of live matches by the prawn sandwich brigade? A land of Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool would be equally dull and I think your Morecambe hat would still have become the preferred garment.

There is more money in the game now, there are better players further down the league and crowds & interest at lower league and non-league level is on the up. At the top end, the arm chair fans are catered for with their rolling bandwagon of success, hundreds of thousands of Asians are able to walk around with Rooney or Gerrard on their back safe in the knowledge that they are just as much a fan as the majority of Man Utd & Liverpool fans in the UK are, unable to pinpoint Old Trafford or Anfield without the aid of Google Maps. I don't even buy this 'bad for the national game' routine, better (world class) players in the Premiership must have helped to improve the quality of the English ones that they play alongside, what was missing was a manager capable of harnessing the egos and focussing the talent, perhaps something our current national boss can manage.

So, in my opinion, the only real losers* have been those, like you, who were real fans of top & middle Premiership clubs. You're the ones who have been disenfranchised by franchise football.

*Of course, there are quite a few clubs teetering on the edge due to mismanagement and are likely to go under but that is unrelated, if anything the Sky money has probably given them a stay of execution.

[shrimper]

The thing is Glen, if Spurs were part of the top four cartel, would you be 'bored' with the success? If it had been Spurs time at the expense of Man Utd, would you regret that the reds were unable to break in to the top? Or, would you have lapped it up until you were priced out of live matches by the prawn sandwich brigade? A land of Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool would be equally dull and I think your Morecambe hat would still have become the preferred garment.

I can only speak as my situation stands now. Had it been Spurs then, yes, I may have had a different view of the whole situation, who knows - but I expect others would make the points I make now and they'd either be valid or not. That's where we're at.

There is more money in the game now, there are better players further down the league and crowds & interest at lower league and non-league level is on the up. At the top end, the arm chair fans are catered for with their rolling bandwagon of success, hundreds of thousands of Asians are able to walk around with Rooney or Gerrard on their back safe in the knowledge that they are just as much a fan as the majority of Man Utd & Liverpool fans in the UK are, unable to pinpoint Old Trafford or Anfield without the aid of Google Maps. I don't even buy this 'bad for the national game' routine, better (world class) players in the Premiership must have helped to improve the quality of the English ones that they play alongside, what was missing was a manager capable of harnessing the egos and focussing the talent, perhaps something our current national boss can manage.

I think it's cyclical and the improvement in grounds after the Taylor Report (and the massive reduction in crowd violence) has had most to do with increased attendances down the leagues. I don't think players at clubs below the top four are, relatively, much better than they ever were - not in a way that would persuade more, say Leeds, or Forest, or Sunderland fans to turn out in increased numbers.
What has certainly changed is that none of those clubs have a hope of ever winning the top division again and they have only a once in a blue moon chance (Portsmouth, Everton) of winning the FA Cup again, as compared to pre CL days when both were regular occurrences. That's what gave us all the excitement each season - that hope.

As for the national side. I don't think the England players are any worse than they've ever been, indeed I agree that as individuals many HAVE benefited from playing alongside good foreign club-mates. My point was more about how their managers now consider playing for England a hinderance to their other priorities, rather than an honour for their club. That must, at times, make its way into the players' own minds and has definitely deprived England of key players for friendlies. I was using it as an indication of how the priorities have shifted from where, in my mind, they should be.

So, in my opinion, the only real losers* have been those, like you, who were real fans of top & middle Premiership clubs. You're the ones who have been disenfranchised by franchise football.

I don't think anyone outside the top four has gained anything at all as a result of the creation of the CL. But they've certainly lost a lot in terms of the hope of any real success, or the chance of one day rising through the divisions and then winning the top flight, or winning the FA Cup, like Southampton, West Ham, Sunderland, Ipswich, Coventry, Wimbledon and loads of others did regularly. Only Pompey and Everton in the last, what? 17 years?

I wonder just what honest justification the big clubs would have for keeping the CL if Uefa said they wanted to scrap it and return to a straight knockout, champions only. It could only be money, in my mind.
I also wonder what the response of the football-watching public would be.






*Of course, there are quite a few clubs teetering on the edge due to mismanagement and are likely to go under but that is unrelated, if anything the Sky money has probably given them a stay of execution.

If the status quo had been maintained, Sky would still have covered games but the money would have been more evenly distributed because there simply wouldn't have been as many European games for them to throw simply vast amounts of money (every year) the way of the big four.



Sorry.

I WILL shut up now (for now), I'm even boring myself.

[Keith]

you were right about the colours though!

[heysham_mfc]

serves them right for putting a resevrve side out