O/T Covid Omicron

[asda shrimp]

Love the whataboutery from the anti mask, anti vaxx idiots.

Yes, there are people who can't have the vaccine, for valid, non made-up, reasons. All the more reason for everyone who can have the vaccine to have theirs to protect others. The anti-vaxxers don't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that everyone who has had the vaccine already are keeping the anti-vaxxers safe too.

So you don't wear a mask and you don't have a vaccine, and you end up in hospital. Not only are you taking up resources purely through your own stupidity, you're blocking a bed from an accident victim, or a cancer sufferer. There's a finite number of beds and medical staff, and mitigating the spread of covid is keeping those beds open for people who need them.

But you might have to show an app to get into the pub? Boo f**king hoo.

I have had two jabs, not anti vacs but should not be pushed on anyone, masks working in europe ?!!! ,

[Zippy]

if you got the time and inclination worth a watch , for information, not for medical advice. This Carlisle based retired Medic has been a great source of information and analysis , and has hammered the value of Vitamin D as long as the Pandemic has been going , makes a change from the hysterical analysis the press and government "nudge" machines gravitate to at least.

https://youtu.be/fbGug3rczx4 Vit D

https://youtu.be/pfO8verFP7E Omnicron update

[asda shrimp]

if you got the time and inclination worth a watch , for information, not for medical advice. This Carlisle based retired Medic has been a great source of information and analysis , and has hammered the value of Vitamin D as long as the Pandemic has been going , makes a change from the hysterical analysis the press and government "nudge" machines gravitate to at least.

https://youtu.be/fbGug3rczx4 Vit D

https://youtu.be/pfO8verFP7E Omnicron update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7OTH0I ... lkRADIO.If you get time watch this as well., can't panic with every variant every year.

[morecambegeek]

Jesus literally wept.

[CityShrimp]

My bosses daughter works as a nurse in a hospital COVID ward . They currently have 20 patients in there , 19 of them haven’t had any jabs , the 20th is an OAP with underlying health problems . I have no sympathy for the 19 and I hope they are looking after the OAP well !

My partner and her workmates at RPH tell me that their Covid wards are mostly full of vaccinated people.

At this stage, there must be only a very small minority of adults in this country who aren’t jabbed at all, and those people are overwhelmingly likely to be young/in reasonable health. I just find it hard to accept the narrative that intensive care units throughout the country are full to the brim with unvaccinated ‘selfish’ people - the numbers don’t stack up and as I say, anecdotally, the people I know ‘on the ground’ tell me that this isn’t the case.

For the record - I am double jabbed and I accept that the jabs do make a large, positive difference. I just don’t like seeing what I believe to be misinformation put out there to push an agenda. And as others have voiced, I am very uncomfortable with the coercion going on and fear we are headed towards forced vaccination.

[Zippy]

if you got the time and inclination worth a watch , for information, not for medical advice. This Carlisle based retired Medic has been a great source of information and analysis , and has hammered the value of Vitamin D as long as the Pandemic has been going , makes a change from the hysterical analysis the press and government "nudge" machines gravitate to at least.

https://youtu.be/fbGug3rczx4 Vit D

https://youtu.be/pfO8verFP7E Omnicron update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7OTH0I ... lkRADIO.If you get time watch this as well., can't panic with every variant every year.

Thanks, some good contextual content

[Phil Anderer]

To an extent I think people have mostly pretty much decided where they stand on these issues, and the 'do as I say, not as I do' coming out of Downing St is distinctly unhelpful. I've always disliked the idea of compulsory vaccination, which is why I like that people can produce evidence of a negative test as an alternative, even if the unscrupulous can circumvent it.

[Born again Bill]

My bosses daughter works as a nurse in a hospital COVID ward . They currently have 20 patients in there , 19 of them haven’t had any jabs , the 20th is an OAP with underlying health problems . I have no sympathy for the 19 and I hope they are looking after the OAP well !

My partner and her workmates at RPH tell me that their Covid wards are mostly full of vaccinated people.

At this stage, there must be only a very small minority of adults in this country who aren’t jabbed at all, and those people are overwhelmingly likely to be young/in reasonable health. I just find it hard to accept the narrative that intensive care units throughout the country are full to the brim with unvaccinated ‘selfish’ people - the numbers don’t stack up and as I say, anecdotally, the people I know ‘on the ground’ tell me that this isn’t the case.

For the record - I am double jabbed and I accept that the jabs do make a large, positive difference. I just don’t like seeing what I believe to be misinformation put out there to push an agenda. And as others have voiced, I am very uncomfortable with the coercion going on and fear we are headed towards forced vaccination.

Just to add to my comment ,this young nurse who is full jabbed up has now contracted COVID and is in bed at home . Possibly but not neccesarily due to the selfish ones who can’t or won’t have the vaccine

[Posh]

My bosses daughter works as a nurse in a hospital COVID ward . They currently have 20 patients in there , 19 of them haven’t had any jabs , the 20th is an OAP with underlying health problems . I have no sympathy for the 19 and I hope they are looking after the OAP well !

My partner and her workmates at RPH tell me that their Covid wards are mostly full of vaccinated people.

At this stage, there must be only a very small minority of adults in this country who aren’t jabbed at all, and those people are overwhelmingly likely to be young/in reasonable health. I just find it hard to accept the narrative that intensive care units throughout the country are full to the brim with unvaccinated ‘selfish’ people - the numbers don’t stack up and as I say, anecdotally, the people I know ‘on the ground’ tell me that this isn’t the case.

For the record - I am double jabbed and I accept that the jabs do make a large, positive difference. I just don’t like seeing what I believe to be misinformation put out there to push an agenda. And as others have voiced, I am very uncomfortable with the coercion going on and fear we are headed towards forced vaccination.

For clarification, the majority of people currently in hospital are vaccinated. However, proportionately the unvaccinated make up a greater amount. What your point illustrates is that a vaccine jab offers considerable protection but that impact declines over time. The booster is important to build up resistance and the government should have done more.

“In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated”.

As for “a very small minority” aren’t double vaccinated. Over a quarter of people in the Lancaster district aren’t double vaccinated and in Preston one third aren’t. Never mind the booster. In some places like the wards covering Lancaster University and central Manchester, only half are double vaccinated. These numbers here and abroad mean Covid will rumble on for years to come.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... ccinations

[Keith]

My partner and her workmates at RPH tell me that their Covid wards are mostly full of vaccinated people...

...I just don’t like seeing what I believe to be misinformation

Without an age profile, this is in itself misleading. A forty year old unvaccinated person and an eighty year old, fully vaccinated are not comparable. Most of the data confirms that unvaccinated people, admitted to hospital are in the younger age groups.

By coincidence, 'Sky News' reported from the RPH Covid Ward recently. The link to the full story is below, but comments from the Consultant in charge of the unit... So unless things have changed dramatically in the last month...

"Twenty months into the pandemic, and the COVID ward at the Royal Preston Hospital is getting busy again.

Admissions have almost doubled over the past month.

So who are the patients ending up on Ward 23 - dubbed the COVID ward?

They are young and unvaccinated, but they are also beginning to be those who have not had their booster jabs...

...Dr Mohammed Munavvar, who has been running the COVID ward at the Royal Preston since the start of the pandemic, said he knows what the virus can do - but he also knows what the vaccines can do.

He explained: "In the group of patients who deteriorate and require critical care admission, the vast majority still are unvaccinated or have received only a single dose of the vaccine."

Dr Munavvar also said he is seeing more patients who have been fully vaccinated but whose condition is much less severe and their stays shorter. That's why he says the boosters are vital."

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pat ... e-12466113

[redrobo]

Other than to continue with the authorities and experts impressing the importance on being vaccinated and getting a booster I'm not sure what can be done to combat those who persist with their misguided view about non vaccination.

What can the Government do if some refuse to accept that seriousness of the problem....

Maybe Austria's approach is correct despite the general reluctance to go down that road.

The experts are at this moment answering questions on Channel 231 about how to combat those who refuse to vaccinate. It appears that a significant number of those not vaccinated are saying that they haven't got round to it yet which given the seriousness of the problem is alarming.

[Keith]

A few months ago, an expert said on 'Ch4 News' [I think it was Professor Devi Sridhar, Chair of Global Public Health] responding to questions regarding the protection offered by vaccines, and that people can still become infected, ill & die, said something along the lines of...

'in very broad terms, a fully vaccinated seventy year old, has similar protection as an unvaccinated fifty year old. A fully vaccinated fifty year old, has similar protection as an unvaccinated thirty year old and a fully vaccinated thirty year old has similar protection to a teenager'.

Obviously, that's not a quote, it is how I remember it, but at the time, it made perfect sense to me. Professor Sridhar is one of 'Ch4 News' regular 'go to experts'. In October, she was advising that the government should have mandated mask wearing inside at public places and promoted home working and other mitigation measures, "if we want to avoid another winter lockdown" and that this would have enabled socialising in bars & restaurants etc to continue, while reducing risk and keeping numbers down. Two months on, and as she predicted, we've had a steep rise. Completely avoidable if the government had acted on science two months ago. Now of course, Johnson will just let it run because he's too vulnerable as Prime Minister and there are a large number of Tory MP's like John Redwood, saying the government 'shouldn't be listening to experts'.

[Keith]

Maybe Austria's approach is correct despite the general reluctance to go down that road.

I'm 100% pro-vaccination.
I'm 100% against mandatory vaccination.

People have the right to choose to refuse medication unless held under a 'Treatment Order' within the Mental Health Act. People can be detained under the Mental Health Act and still refuse medication, unless specifically on a treatment order. The 'Mental Capacity Act' allows people to 'make unwise decisions' if they have capacity. People should retain the right to make decisions regarding what medication they are taking, even if the decision is unwise and made through dubious & inaccurate information.

What can the Government do if some refuse to accept that seriousness of the problem....

...The experts are at this moment answering questions on Channel 231 about how to combat those who refuse to vaccinate. It appears that a significant number of those not vaccinated are saying that they haven't got round to it yet which given the seriousness of the problem is alarming.

Personally, I would mandate 'COVID-19 Passports'. Drop the 'have you had a test?' nonsense. The NHS COVID-19 app could have a section added where a doctor can certify that someone is medically exempt (not 'why', simply that they 'are') so it would allow that very small number of people freedoms. Beyond that, not vaccinated? Tough.

Aww... but that takes away my freedom...
Well, many years ago, the government took away your 'freedom' to 'choose' not to wear a crash helmet when riding a motorbike.
Lots of people protested, but soon got over it.

And the government took away your 'freedom' to 'choose' not to wear a seatbelt when driving a car.
Lots of people protested, but soon got over it.

And the government took away your 'freedom' to 'choose' drink alcohol before driving a car.

And the government took away your 'freedom' to 'choose' to smoke cigarettes in bars & restaurants.
Lots of people protested, but soon got over it.

Some people would protest about COVID-19 passports. But in the same way as seatbelts etc, at the time, everyone knew it made sense to wear a seatbelt but many people just didn't bother. Those people who aren't actually 'anti-vaccine' but simply 'haven't got around to it' would do so if they couldn't go to the pub etc.

Bring the restrictions in for a fixed period, then review. So, for example, 'COVID-19 Passports will be required for the next eight months' then take it back to parliament for review. Sorted.

[black morse]

Agree with this entirely Keith.

[Phil Anderer]

Good post Keith. Not going back over the thread to find who said it, but there was a comment regarding learning to live with it as we'll get variants occurring every year. There is a way to stop this happening, and that's for everyone who can to get vaccinated. The problem is that needs to be global, not national. You're then faced with 2 obstacles: one is developed nations buying disproportionately large quantities of vaccines, and the extremely high vaccine reluctance in places like Africa, where due to scepticism of western medicine and expressly vaccines, created in no small part by colonialism (and by extension racism), vast swathes of the population are unlikely to get vaccinated, creating a perfect breeding ground for future variants.

[redrobo]

Seems somewhat illogical that we should mandate a Covid Passport but NOT mandate that everybody unless medically excused should have the required number of jabs.

We are in a crisis situation and everybody has a responsibility to not only themselves but to others in general to have a vaccine. Sorry, but the feeble excuse of 'I retain my right to choose' in a crisis situation is totally unacceptable. The entire population should be instructed and enforced by law if necessary to have the jabs.

My daughter works in a customer facing role at Royal Preston Hospital and like her colleagues can't understand the attitude of some non vaccinated people. Maybe they should spend some time in a Covid ward to witness what is actually happening and see the suffering that those affected are going through. The NHS is at breaking point and the selfish attitude of a minority isn't helping.....

[Phil Anderer]

Seems somewhat illogical that we should mandate a Covid Passport but NOT mandate that everybody unless medically excused should have the required number of jabs.

We are in a crisis situation and everybody has a responsibility to not only themselves but to others in general to have a vaccine. Sorry, but the feeble excuse of 'I retain my right to choose' in a crisis situation is totally unacceptable. The entire population should be instructed and enforced by law if necessary to have the jabs.

My daughter works in a customer facing role at Royal Preston Hospital and like her colleagues can't understand the attitude of some non vaccinated people. Maybe they should spend some time in a Covid ward to witness what is actually happening and see the suffering that those affected are going through. The NHS is at breaking point and the selfish attitude of a minority isn't helping.....

Neil, I do understand why you and others feel this way, but I would personally advocate better engagement with the vaccine-sceptic and even anti-vaxxers, both to try to address their reasons for refusing the vaccine and to explain to them the much wider consequences of their refusal, in terms of extended and repeated lockdowns, increased likelihood of new variants, prolongation of the pandemic and unnecessary illness and deaths. I think if these are discussed and explained properly (and I'm not suggesting I'm doing that here before anyone suggests otherwise), then significant progress in vaccination rates is achievable, in a far better way than mandated vaccination would do it.

[Keith]

Seems somewhat illogical that we should mandate a Covid Passport but NOT mandate that everybody unless medically excused should have the required number of jabs.

The logic being, no-one would experience physical side effects from a COVID passport!

[asda shrimp]

Seems somewhat illogical that we should mandate a Covid Passport but NOT mandate that everybody unless medically excused should have the required number of jabs.

We are in a crisis situation and everybody has a responsibility to not only themselves but to others in general to have a vaccine. Sorry, but the feeble excuse of 'I retain my right to choose' in a crisis situation is totally unacceptable. The entire population should be instructed and enforced by law if necessary to have the jabs.

My daughter works in a customer facing role at Royal Preston Hospital and like her colleagues can't understand the attitude of some non vaccinated people. Maybe they should spend some time in a Covid ward to witness what is actually happening and see the suffering that those affected are going through. The NHS is at breaking point and the selfish attitude of a minority isn't helping.....

SELFISH ? what about people who have had covid and have better protection ? why should they get the vaccine ?. FORCED TO TAKE THE VACCINE, ?

[Keith]

ELFISH ? what about people who have had covid and have better protection ? why should they get the vaccine ?. FORCED TO TAKE THE VACCINE, ?

Evidence of "better protection"?

[black morse]

It's alright people saying that if things were explained better then more people would take the vaccine but most of those who haven't been jabbed have their minds set against it and will never been persuaded (as evidenced on here!). As for those who 'haven't made their mind up yet' what more evidence of the dangers than the present rapid increase in infections do they need?

[Zippy]

It's alright people saying that if things were explained better then more people would take the vaccine but most of those who haven't been jabbed have their minds set against it and will never been persuaded (as evidenced on here!). As for those who 'haven't made their mind up yet' what more evidence of the dangers than the present rapid increase in infections do they need?

BM , i don't disagree with your post at all, other that the to replace the word "dangers" with "uncertainties" . There is a very real potential that a short sharp shock wave of OMNICRON acquired immunity with limited severity associated, could also be the key to a near term normal existence , we don't know yet. The proof of the pudding is not far away but as usual the hysterical media will not observe any balance and they will no doubt associate rising hospitalizations & death with Primary infection cause rather than incidental cases due to societal infection increase . Worth to keep an eye on the below graphic for some developing steer on severity of OMNICRON , if it gets above 2k ill probably be heading for the Bunker but as you will see the rates are currently below same period last year (for now) lagging indicator it may be.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/119 ... in-the-uk/

I know i said i wouldn't post again on this topic apologies

[CityShrimp]

My bosses daughter works as a nurse in a hospital COVID ward . They currently have 20 patients in there , 19 of them haven’t had any jabs , the 20th is an OAP with underlying health problems . I have no sympathy for the 19 and I hope they are looking after the OAP well !

My partner and her workmates at RPH tell me that their Covid wards are mostly full of vaccinated people.

At this stage, there must be only a very small minority of adults in this country who aren’t jabbed at all, and those people are overwhelmingly likely to be young/in reasonable health. I just find it hard to accept the narrative that intensive care units throughout the country are full to the brim with unvaccinated ‘selfish’ people - the numbers don’t stack up and as I say, anecdotally, the people I know ‘on the ground’ tell me that this isn’t the case.

For the record - I am double jabbed and I accept that the jabs do make a large, positive difference. I just don’t like seeing what I believe to be misinformation put out there to push an agenda. And as others have voiced, I am very uncomfortable with the coercion going on and fear we are headed towards forced vaccination.

Just to add to my comment ,this young nurse who is full jabbed up has now contracted COVID and is in bed at home . Possibly but not neccesarily due to the selfish ones who can’t or won’t have the vaccine

I’m sorry to hear that, but as the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission I don’t think you can ‘blame’ the unvaccinated for transmitting it….

[Keith]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/119 ... in-the-uk/

I know i said i wouldn't post again on this topic apologies

Keep going!


What I can't find is, in association with the statistic you linked to above, the other two key indicators (in my opinion)

1. What percentage of people in hospital due to COVID-19 are vaccinated?
and
2. The is the age profile of those admissions?

I *suspect* that the percentage of people in hospital who are fully vaccinated is steadily increasing, as would be expected (if 100% of the population were vaccinated, then 100% of the people in hospital with COVID-19 would be vaccinated!) but that the age profile is distinctly different, with the average age of unvaccinated patients being much lower than the vaccinated people.

[CityShrimp]

In response to the other points…

I don’t disagree with anything being said - yes, the vaccine fundamentally reduces anyones chances of being hospitalised. I just don’t like some of the news stories out there that are making out that ICU wards are completely full of unvaccinated people, which is sensationalist reporting and untrue.

With regards to mandatory vaccination, I could perhaps understand if the jabs stopped you transmitting it to others but they don’t… so the decision on whether to get jabbed only affects you personally. Some will say “but if you get ill you have no right to take up a bed in ICU” - but what about people who smoke? Or partake in dangerous sports? We already have freedoms to make choices that I’d argue are far riskier than not getting jabbed…

Pressure on the nhs is definitely an issue, but that was already an existing problem caused by chronic underfunding - it was exacerbated, but not caused by covid. Waiting times and capacity could go back to exactly what they were pre covid and they will still look terrible! Even if everyone was vaccinated, there will still be hospitalisations and there will still be variants - forever - so to my mind we have to accept this and simply increase capacity/start funding the nhs properly (which we should have done anyway regardless of Covid).

This all comes down to individual belief on ‘acceptable level of risk’. Everybody has a level of risk that they will accept. Before Covid, up to 20,000 people per year died from flu and it was possible to get very ill from it - but virtually nobody wore a mask in public because we all accepted that flu was just part of life. So where’s the line? This isn’t black and white like some people seem to believe.

I’m going to play devils advocate now, and I am just making a very general point.. redboro obviously has a more ‘cautious’ view on Covid than I do, but there will be someone out there with a more cautious view still… that person might question why redrobo still attends football matches - hardly an essential activity - where you’re mixed closely with a lot of other people. His chances of catching Covid and being hospitalised would be less if he stayed away - but he obviously doesn’t. Does that make him ‘reckless’? Does that mean he doesn’t care about catching Covid? No, it just means he’s accepting of that level of risk. Just as others have their own acceptable level of risk.